I thought they were showing us Willow was cutting corners to get what she wanted, right and wrong be damned. I think it was the set up for the story she should have had, that became a crack and car crash story.

Absolutely. That was her big arc that was carried very effectively from S1 through S7, with a disastrous detour into addiction metaphors. It was in keeping with her character. But...flawed interesting characters more interesting than moral exemplars. I like Willow's story. I'm glad Joss made it dark, and explored the difference between her conception of power and Buffy's (or Tara's or Faith's). She made mistakes - big ones. Did she redeem herself? To me she did. YWMV.

My big Willow defense back in S6 (when folks were seriously losing their affection for her) hinges on "Becoming" and Giles' line that she was taking on powers which could change her, that would open doors that couldn't be closed. I laid out my case that Willow had consistently taken on more power than she was ready to handle, because it was necessary at the time. And all the Scoobs encouraged it, even though only Giles ever acknowledged that she could bear the costs for opening those doors.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

I disagree that it needs to mean this. I can think of several examples of people wanting to hide activities of theirs for fear of disapproval, without thinking their activities are wrong. (One personal example: in my old church, unbaptized members dating seriously was frowned upon. Bec and I dated seriously for two years before we were baptized, and during that time we hid that fact from a number of people; not because we were doing something wrong and knew it, but because we knew how said people would react, believed they were wrong, and knew it would cause problems to have them trying to interfere.

I don't think Willow wanted to confront the possibility that Giles etc would've been right, but I don't think it's appropriate to argue that feeling it had to be hidden is evidence that she thought it was wrong.

I'm right with this, except where you have 'she thought it was right but feared it was wrong'. I felt she wasn't very sure it was right, so much as she wanted it to be right, and didn't want to know it was wrong.

I think this may be looking at different points in the chain of reasoning. Willow had convinced herself that Buffy was most likely in a hell-dimension. If that were so, then bringing her back would be rescuing her, and the right thing to do. So I believe she did indeed think that what she was doing was right, because she'd reached certain conclusions as to the state of affairs.

These conclusions as to the state of affairs, however, weren't as solidly based as she wanted to believe. They were built largely on supposition and a particular emotional state. If she examined that closely and critically, it may well have damaged her certainty. Hence fearing that it was wrong. I don't recall seeing any suggestion of uncertainty from Willow either before or after raising Buffy, until she learned that Buffy had been in heaven. So while I think she wanted it to be right, I think that had led her to a point where she was reasonably sure it was right. (I may be saying that this isn't either/or. She wanted it to be right, which in large part is the source of her certainty it was right.)

Absolutely. That was her big arc that was carried very effectively from S1 through S7, with a disastrous detour into addiction metaphors. It was in keeping with her character. But...flawed interesting characters more interesting than moral exemplars. I like Willow's story. I'm glad Joss made it dark, and explored the difference between her conception of power and Buffy's (or Tara's or Faith's). She made mistakes - big ones. Did she redeem herself? To me she did. YWMV.

MWDoesn'tV much. I'm reading posts (and maybe misreading them) seeing this defense of things as innocent mistakes, that seem to me to have been written as things Willow did wrong on purpose - saying she didn't know, didn't realize. I think she was a bit more culpable than that. This is no dim bulb; she's always thinkin' thinkin' thinkin'. I don't hate Willow. I don't think Willow should have been killed. I don't think they should have eaten up all of season 7, having Willow punished in every episode. I do think one of her interesting flaws is that she knew she was wrong, and resurrected Buffy anyhow, for a mix of reasons: world security, personal safety, she was missing her friend, with a heapin' helpin' of 'because I can'.

Willow had consistently taken on more power than she was ready to handle, because it was necessary at the time. And all the Scoobs encouraged it, even though only Giles ever acknowledged that she could bear the costs for opening those doors.

And even he didn't consider the baggage that Willow was carrying. I keep going back to Willow's remark in "Grave" (or was it "Two to Go"?) that she was tired of being the sidekick.

There's a direct line from "the softer side of Sears" to flaying Warren.

I do think one of her interesting flaws is that she knew she was wrong, and resurrected Buffy anyhow, for a mix of reasons: world security, personal safety, she was missing her friend, with a heapin' helpin' of 'because I can'.

Yeah, see, I'm more in line with billytea's assessment that she had a mishmash of denial and unsupproted certainty justifying her actions. I don't think she knew she was wrong. She's a lot closer to criminal negligence as moral crimes go.

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

I get not wanting the finger wagging from Giles.

She thought Dawn was old enough to bring her own mother back from the dead, so why not tell her about Buffy?

From her experiences in Forever, Dawn's mindset probably would have been something like - "I went through this with my Mom and it's really screwed up to do this to people. Death sucks. But you just have to deal with it, like I did. Please do not screw with Buffy or with me by doing this."

Bottom line for me is that it wasn't Willow's decision to make without consulting Dawn. She knew that Dawn would have strong feelings about it and didn't care. That's cold, yo.

With all that - I'm glad Willow went dark, too. Dark!Willow kicked ass in many ways. But how she got there lacked some creativity (addiction) and how she recovered lacked a powerful story except for right at the end when she went White. YWarcMV.

There's a direct line from "the softer side of Sears" to flaying Warren.

Oh yeah. There's a really good fanvid charting this, btw - though it only goes through the begining of S6. It still ends with her on the tomb in "Bargaining" looking dark and powerful. But it could have easily ended with the flaying.

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

Probably didn't want to get Dawn's hopes up in case it failed.

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

What if it went wrong? (x-post)

What if it went wrong?

Right. Because it's also implied in "Bargaining" that Willow was prepared to dispose of a zombie!Buffy if things went awry.