And we live to fight another day.

Mal ,'Objects In Space'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


Cindy - Aug 15, 2003 10:39:16 am PDT #4661 of 10001
Nobody

Absolutely. That was her big arc that was carried very effectively from S1 through S7, with a disastrous detour into addiction metaphors. It was in keeping with her character. But...flawed interesting characters more interesting than moral exemplars. I like Willow's story. I'm glad Joss made it dark, and explored the difference between her conception of power and Buffy's (or Tara's or Faith's). She made mistakes - big ones. Did she redeem herself? To me she did. YWMV.

MWDoesn'tV much. I'm reading posts (and maybe misreading them) seeing this defense of things as innocent mistakes, that seem to me to have been written as things Willow did wrong on purpose - saying she didn't know, didn't realize. I think she was a bit more culpable than that. This is no dim bulb; she's always thinkin' thinkin' thinkin'. I don't hate Willow. I don't think Willow should have been killed. I don't think they should have eaten up all of season 7, having Willow punished in every episode. I do think one of her interesting flaws is that she knew she was wrong, and resurrected Buffy anyhow, for a mix of reasons: world security, personal safety, she was missing her friend, with a heapin' helpin' of 'because I can'.


Fred Pete - Aug 15, 2003 10:41:32 am PDT #4662 of 10001
Ann, that's a ferret.

Willow had consistently taken on more power than she was ready to handle, because it was necessary at the time. And all the Scoobs encouraged it, even though only Giles ever acknowledged that she could bear the costs for opening those doors.

And even he didn't consider the baggage that Willow was carrying. I keep going back to Willow's remark in "Grave" (or was it "Two to Go"?) that she was tired of being the sidekick.

There's a direct line from "the softer side of Sears" to flaying Warren.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 10:42:31 am PDT #4663 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

I do think one of her interesting flaws is that she knew she was wrong, and resurrected Buffy anyhow, for a mix of reasons: world security, personal safety, she was missing her friend, with a heapin' helpin' of 'because I can'.

Yeah, see, I'm more in line with billytea's assessment that she had a mishmash of denial and unsupproted certainty justifying her actions. I don't think she knew she was wrong. She's a lot closer to criminal negligence as moral crimes go.


tina f. - Aug 15, 2003 10:43:40 am PDT #4664 of 10001

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

I get not wanting the finger wagging from Giles.

She thought Dawn was old enough to bring her own mother back from the dead, so why not tell her about Buffy?

From her experiences in Forever, Dawn's mindset probably would have been something like - "I went through this with my Mom and it's really screwed up to do this to people. Death sucks. But you just have to deal with it, like I did. Please do not screw with Buffy or with me by doing this."

Bottom line for me is that it wasn't Willow's decision to make without consulting Dawn. She knew that Dawn would have strong feelings about it and didn't care. That's cold, yo.

With all that - I'm glad Willow went dark, too. Dark!Willow kicked ass in many ways. But how she got there lacked some creativity (addiction) and how she recovered lacked a powerful story except for right at the end when she went White. YWarcMV.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 10:44:14 am PDT #4665 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

There's a direct line from "the softer side of Sears" to flaying Warren.

Oh yeah. There's a really good fanvid charting this, btw - though it only goes through the begining of S6. It still ends with her on the tomb in "Bargaining" looking dark and powerful. But it could have easily ended with the flaying.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 10:45:39 am PDT #4666 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

Probably didn't want to get Dawn's hopes up in case it failed.


billytea - Aug 15, 2003 10:46:03 am PDT #4667 of 10001
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

What if it went wrong? (x-post)


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 10:46:55 am PDT #4668 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

What if it went wrong?

Right. Because it's also implied in "Bargaining" that Willow was prepared to dispose of a zombie!Buffy if things went awry.


Frankenbuddha - Aug 15, 2003 10:48:35 am PDT #4669 of 10001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

Right. Because it's also implied in "Bargaining" that Willow was prepared to dispose of a zombie!Buffy if things went awry.

Which is something XANDER never considered until Spike hit him with it.


esse - Aug 15, 2003 10:53:35 am PDT #4670 of 10001
S to the A -- using they/them pronouns!

There's a really good fanvid charting this, btw

Transparent. Really fucking good.