I said I'm sorry. I've made mistakes, but fear was never one of them.

Lilah ,'Conviction (1)'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


Frankenbuddha - Aug 15, 2003 10:48:35 am PDT #4669 of 10001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

Right. Because it's also implied in "Bargaining" that Willow was prepared to dispose of a zombie!Buffy if things went awry.

Which is something XANDER never considered until Spike hit him with it.


esse - Aug 15, 2003 10:53:35 am PDT #4670 of 10001
S to the A -- using they/them pronouns!

There's a really good fanvid charting this, btw

Transparent. Really fucking good.


tina f. - Aug 15, 2003 10:58:13 am PDT #4671 of 10001

What if it went wrong?

Bringing back Joyce went wrong.

She encouraged Dawn to raise her Mom from the dead by herself with no guarantee that it will turn out OK, but then wants to protect her in case Buffy comes back wrong?

I don't buy it. I think she knew Dawn would be against it and had no defense.

Whew! I've never participated in a Willow debate before. Good times.

edited to be less snarky


Cindy - Aug 15, 2003 11:04:12 am PDT #4672 of 10001
Nobody

I don't buy it. I think she knew Dawn would be against it and had no defense.

Me, too.


Steph L. - Aug 15, 2003 11:11:21 am PDT #4673 of 10001
I look more rad than Lutheranism

But it probably would've been more consistent for Oz to leave because Willow did a mind-wipe equivalent thing.

In early S4 Oz talked about thinking Willow was doing too much too fast with her magic -- in HLoD, I think. Though I don't know if that was before SG decided to leave. So I can see how Oz and Willow would have split (had Oz stayed) over her use of magic.

But but but...why didn't she tell Dawn?

What if it went wrong?

Same reason she didn't tell Spike. Both of them would have kept a fucked-up zombie!Buffy around.

Willow seems to have the attitude w/r/t magic of It's Better to Do It and Ask Forgiveness Later Rather Than Ask Permission First.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 11:12:31 am PDT #4674 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

She encouraged Dawn to raise her Mom from the dead by herself with no guarantee that it will turn out OK, but then wants to protect her in case Buffy comes back wrong?

I don't think she encouraged Dawn to raise her Mom. I think she pushed Dawn towards magic because that's where she dealt (poorly) with her emotional problems.

I don't buy it. I think she knew Dawn would be against it and had no defense.

I don't think Dawn would've been against it. I think Dawn would've easily been persuaded that Buffy's situation was different than her Mom's - because even by Jossiverse standards this was true. Buffy was able to come back because her death was "unnatural" - Dawn, who was miserable without Joyce and Buffy, would've grasped at just such a justification.


billytea - Aug 15, 2003 11:12:57 am PDT #4675 of 10001
You were a wrong baby who grew up wrong. The wrong kind of wrong. It's better you hear it from a friend.

Bringing back Joyce went wrong.

Well, exactly. She knows there's no guarantee this is going to work, and she knows what happened last time and how it affected Dawn. So if Spike was right and Willow both knew that Buffy could come back wrong and she would have to stop her, why would she expose Dawn to that?

She encouraged Dawn to raise her Mom from the dead by herself with no guarantee that it will turn out OK, but then wants to protect her in case Buffy comes back wrong?

I don't think she thought about the prospect that Joyce could come back wrong. I also think the Joyce experience is why she realised it was an issue, and why she knew it would be better not to involve Dawn. I mean, how would she bring it up? "I know it didn't work so well with your mother, but I reckon I've got the bugs ironed out now."

I have trouble seeing leaving Dawn out of the loop as an indication that she thought what she was doing was wrong. I can see why she'd be affected by Giles telling her she was going too far, as he has some knowledge and experience in such matters; but why would she be troubled by the judgment of a kid?


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 11:13:27 am PDT #4676 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Willow seems to have the attitude w/r/t magic of It's Better to Do It and Ask Forgiveness Later Rather Than Ask Permission First.

Heh. Willow is never about Asking Persmission. Ever.


Frankenbuddha - Aug 15, 2003 11:14:21 am PDT #4677 of 10001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

Dawn, who was miserable without Joyce and Buffy, would've grasped at just such a justification.

Considering that she was hugging the Buffybot for comfort, I agree.


Daisy Jane - Aug 15, 2003 11:14:51 am PDT #4678 of 10001
"This bar smells like kerosene and stripper tears."

She encouraged Dawn to raise her Mom from the dead by herself with no guarantee that it will turn out OK, but then wants to protect her in case Buffy comes back wrong?

I never thought Willow pointing Dawn toward that book was her encouraging Dawn to raise Joyce. I thought it was giving her an answer that was more whole than "No we don't do that." The book itself wasn't enough to do it. In fact, Dawn had to find other books to tell her what to do.