Yeah, but you know, Hec, there's a line and admittedly, it's different for different people, between, "Oh, they're just being babies/kids," and "My God, lady, control your little beast before I kill you."

Of course. I'm not defending ill-behaved children or lax parents. But even well-behaved children make impositions when they're out and about. They say inappropriate things, they make messes, they're too loud. Even when they're not going feral in a restaurant they impinge on other people. There has to be some space and flex for that.

My personal BMI puts me at "obese", to which I just roll my eyes. My cholesterol is hands down fantastic; total, good, and bad. I smoke (for three more days, anyway), I do little to no exercise, and I do not eat as healthily as I should. But these things I know about myself and could change them, I just don't. I sure as hell don't need some smarmy little number to be up my ass about it.

My mother-in-law, being true to form, told me that based on her experience, my thyroid wasn't hyperactive because I obviously hadn't had the rapid loss of weight. I laffed and laffed.

Pushing health as a societal virtue is fine.

Not really. It punishes people who are ill, and I have a problem with shaming, say, cancer patients for their lack of virtue.

Also, people deserve the same amount of respect regardless of whether they're considered "healthy" or "unhealthy." Making "health" into a virtue makes equal respect a damn near impossibility.

insurance odds of what really affects your longevity and quality of life. I'm not sure how they factor weight into their tables, but I'm pretty sure they do.

Yes, insurance companies have no vested interest whatsoever in narrowing down what constitutes healthfulness.

I love you, Nora.

I'd rather trust well-designed unbiased scientific studies regarding the health effects of body weight, versus an actuary (sorry, billytea).

Oh, wait! A girl's on vacation and you're all fast, smoothy talking. Gotta expect this better next time.

P-C and Barb, it was interesting to read that dissection. I have tons of plans, almost no one has full details and info, but I always planned my life. Of course, it never comes out the way I thought it was, but that's part of the fun. Plus, I plan because I'm the scared type. Anyway, that's not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is thanks for sharing so we'll have that on b.org. I'm unemployed now, mostly because I'm insisting on not taking jobs that are paying less than minimum wage (which they call here "student wage"), and my parents have my back for the next few months. So it's not like I have family to support, but as someone who has been independent since she was 18 because she insisted on it that's quite a change. But I am worried, a little bit, about not really having goals - I have tons of stuff I want to do and learn, but not one is a goal to itself, just something I'd love to do.
Anyways, what I realy wanted to say and now see I didn't is the buffistas knows best, as always. Don't you ever go wrong?

Barb, no pain~ma.

The logic, it has left the building.

True that, not only about being healthy. The environmental discussion hit my campus in the following form:
Students: can we assign the paper printed on both sides?
Teacher: no.
Students: but think of the environment!
Me: you totally missed the paper recycle bin on your left, have you?
But environment!
Me: people. Your argument should be financial. Not environmental.
Students: but... environment!
Me: headdesk

Also, I totally missed omnis' datemight. Dammit. I wish you two nothing but dirty, sexy things, ASAP. Keep in touch with that one, dear.

Oh, the seder and my CS guest were wonderful. For all I care, Canada rocks, and the dude said I have things to see in Montreal.

Also, I tried to burn an audio CD for the past 2 hours. Computer FAILS.

I think it took me forever to type my reply. Or I could be just in another time dimension.

"See how much crap I have? Move over, minions."

That's what I'm thinking, like, the whole time! And people still ask me stupid questions!

Not really. It punishes people who are ill, and I have a problem with shaming, say, cancer patients for their lack of virtue.

I don't really see that dynamic. I see the emphasis on "healthy choices." Exercise, eating right, not smoking. I agree that all three of those things should be pushed over 18 hour World of Warcraft sessions, double-stuffed pizzas and Joe Camel.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

I think there must be a way of making health into a virtue without punishing people who aren't healthy, I just don't thik we are there yet. Skinny=Healthy is false and does no one any good. Maybe if we could concentrate on behaviors rather than overall looks it would help, such as programs in place now publicising the dangers of smoking or educating immigrant parents about the dangers of juvenile diabetes. Making sure pregnant women get their folic acid or whatever.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

Meh. That's great as your own personal choice for yourself and to instill in your kids, but whatever, I think a person's personal choice is their own. Who the hell am I to decree that playing 18 hours of World of Warcraft is non-virtuous if it doesn't hurt anyone else and makes the person happy?

I mean, really.

Maybe if we could concentrate on behaviors rather than overall looks it would help, such as programs in place now publicising the dangers of smoking or educating immigrant parents about the dangers of juvenile diabetes. Making sure pregnant women get their folic acid or whatever.

You know what healthcare chagne would thrill me? Ff we adopted the French approach to pregnancy. Automatic, fully covered health care and counseling all the way through pregnancy and time off in the first couple years.

I'm not sure how much the anti-smoking campaign has worked. It's pretty aggressive in California and kind of obnoxious.

I think there must be a way of making health into a virtue without punishing people who aren't healthy, I just don't thik we are there yet.

Isn't this just a symptom? Any value that one's trying to promote comes on expense of other values. We don't live in a black and white world, but we do live in one who tries to sell people that it is one, and one set of values is better, universally, to all. Alternatives will always be tricky to handle, because they'll be seen as resistance.