And the gym bags and stuff bugs me simply because people will get on a crowded bus and swing their bags around without any consideration for the people around them. It's on a par with the people who insist on occupying two seats and forcing others to stand, or the people who get on with a big suitcase and park it right in the doorway.

And at least the people with luggage aren't declaring their virtue with it. "See how much crap I have? Move over, minions."

And the gym bags and stuff bugs me simply because people will get on a crowded bus and swing their bags around without any consideration for the people around them. It's on a par with the people who insist on occupying two seats and forcing others to stand, or the people who get on with a big suitcase and park it right in the doorway.

Yes, this. It makes me want to punch people.

It's making it into one of the primary virtues that bugs me. It's saying that your health - measured by how thin you are - is a major element in how worthwhile a person you are. And that if you meet a specific criterion you've fulfilled your daily requirement of doing good things.

I think a lot of that has to do with marketing and advertising. Shaming people into buying stuff has been a lucrative strategy for a long time. Our culture also judges your value on how much money you have. "You can never be too rich or thin."

What exactly are the primary virtues anyway? I don't know if it's posited above Parental Responsibility, or whatever else we'd consider at the apex.

And the gym bags and stuff bugs me simply because people will get on a crowded bus and swing their bags around without any consideration for the people around them. It's on a par with the people who insist on occupying two seats and forcing others to stand, or the people who get on with a big suitcase and park it right in the doorway.

Right, but that's a politeness issue. Unless you're saying people feel entitled to block the way because they worked out. Which maybe they do, but wouldn't past the smell test with Miss Manners.

Eh, here in Seattle people smell half the time anyway, not because they've worked out, just because they're dirty hippies hipsters.

I think it's the sense of entitlement I get from them. Whatever.

Thanks for the discussion - I was wondering if it was just me.

This sort of falls in the same category (to me) as complaining about people getting on the bus with their noisy and annoying children.

Yeah, but you know, Hec, there's a line and admittedly, it's different for different people, between, "Oh, they're just being babies/kids," and "My God, lady, control your little beast before I kill you."

Example number two is the person who lets their kid run amok in restaurants, crawling under other people's tables, etc., and then gives other customers the stinkeye, should they dare complain about their little darlings. Or lets them run up and down the aisles of a crowded bus while they keep their noses resolutely buried in a book or newspaper, or thinks it's okay for their kids to yank every blessed can off the shelves and drop them to the floor, thus creating hazards. There's just such a tremendous sense of entitlement that, if I can get meta, is the same sense of entitlement that winds up following the little ruggers into school and why teachers have such a hard time giving appropriate grades and punishment. Because the parents won't allow it.

I suspect that the surly gym goers Toddson's describing fall more into category two than category one.

insurance odds of what really affects your longevity and quality of life. I'm not sure how they factor weight into their tables, but I'm pretty sure they do.

Yes, insurance companies have no vested interest whatsoever in narrowing down what constitutes healthfulness.

I am pretty sure that insurance companies use the BMI tables.

I think it's the sense of entitlement I get from them. Whatever.

Man, there are so many people entitled and judgmental I can hardly single them out. You've got the save-the-world evangelizers and PETA people, and surly Vegans, and stylistas and hard charging career types. I fail in all their eyes.

I think self-involved people encroaching on others in public is wrong, whether it's health nuts bumping my with their gym bag to people playing their iPod so loudly that I can hear it from across the aisle to guys who act like it's a huge chore to lift up their bags to clear a seat. I don't know if I would tie it to gym rats specifically, more to a general lack of civility.

As to weight, I hate the BMI tyranny, and I consider myself healthy when I am around 145, even though my Doc wants me to be thinner. I ALSO know that when I creep up to 160 or over, I can feel the lack of energy and my blood pressure goes up. The last decade of life, my dad was pretty much an invalid from congestive heart failure and my mom spent a lot of time taking care of him. I know I inherited his rotten cardiovascular system and I have to be vigilant. So health for me IS a virtue--I want to keep Jason from having to be my caretaker if I can.

Barb, I wonder if part of the reason they separated is the expectations that he had/way he was treating you and your sibs, and now that that's not an issue, she can justify being back with him.

That would have made it easy, but no. They separated because he was a hard drinking, cheating bastard who on occasion did the slapping around thing. In other words, a very typical macho Cuban man of his era.

But of course, now he's changed. *rolling eyes forever*