Maybe if we could concentrate on behaviors rather than overall looks it would help, such as programs in place now publicising the dangers of smoking or educating immigrant parents about the dangers of juvenile diabetes. Making sure pregnant women get their folic acid or whatever.

You know what healthcare chagne would thrill me? Ff we adopted the French approach to pregnancy. Automatic, fully covered health care and counseling all the way through pregnancy and time off in the first couple years.

I'm not sure how much the anti-smoking campaign has worked. It's pretty aggressive in California and kind of obnoxious.

I think there must be a way of making health into a virtue without punishing people who aren't healthy, I just don't thik we are there yet.

Isn't this just a symptom? Any value that one's trying to promote comes on expense of other values. We don't live in a black and white world, but we do live in one who tries to sell people that it is one, and one set of values is better, universally, to all. Alternatives will always be tricky to handle, because they'll be seen as resistance.

Yeah, it is hard to know which programs actually work, is the problem. I don't mind if they are obnoxious, as long as they help people live longer, happier lives. The AIDS-prevention programs in the 80s and 90s were unavoidably all up in everyone's grill, but they did lead to a drop in transmission. They have discuvered that rates went up when more vigilant programs thought they were "done" and stopped the endless ads and billboards and outreach.

I am sure billytea saw this last year, but I just discovered the flying penguins.

we do live in one who tries to sell people that it is one, and one set of values is better, universally, to all. Alternatives will always be tricky to handle, because they'll be seen as resistance.

INDEED. Well said.

Who the hell am I to decree that playing 18 hours of World of Warcraft is non-virtuous if it doesn't hurt anyone else and makes the person happy?

We're talking about societal values, not individual ones. I think Toddson's original point was asking about a shift in cultural values which overrated health to the detriment of civility.

I think a lot of people believe fat is a lifestyle choice and that it is OK to discriminate (or at least make fun of people) based on their lifestyle choices. I believe many of these people feel the same way about homosexuality.

Not really. It punishes people who are ill, and I have a problem with shaming, say, cancer patients for their lack of virtue.

I don't really see that dynamic. I see the emphasis on "healthy choices."

Oh HELL no. We live in a country where the perception of health is everything -- hence, someone who loses weight from undergoing chemo is lauded, while the overweight athlete is sneered at.

Choices, my (fat) ass.

Exercise, eating right, not smoking. I agree that all three of those things should be pushed over 18 hour World of Warcraft sessions, double-stuffed pizzas and Joe Camel.

Actually, individual self-determination means that you can do whatever you want to yourself, and it's okay. I do not give one crap if anyone I know plays 18 hours of WoW while eating pizzas and chain-smoking. I'm not the arbiter of anyone's lifestyle.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

Not currently, it isn't.

The virtue is not health itself, but doing things which promote health.

Meh. That's great as your own personal choice for yourself and to instill in your kids, but whatever, I think a person's personal choice is their own. Who the hell am I to decree that playing 18 hours of World of Warcraft is non-virtuous if it doesn't hurt anyone else and makes the person happy?

I'm just going to follow Nora around and proclaim my love for her (sorry, Tom).

We're talking about societal values, not individual ones.

My point still stands- I don't see why society needs to get up people's asses about playing excessive video games and eating pizza for every meal. I think that societal values could be better focused on, say, being considerate to other people or not being so greedy as to fuck the economy of the entire world.

But damn, I bet those executives and their wives are HELLA healthy and fit.

I'm just going to follow Nora around and proclaim my love for her

Whoo! Come do it in New England, will ya?