As I noted upthread, it was widely reported that one child who received a huge cash settlement (in the millions) was able to describe the vitiligo on MJ's penis. So. He saw it.

A child who is not Jordan Chandler? Because in the case of Jordan Chandler it went down like this:

Jackson agreed to a 25-minute strip search, conducted at his ranch. The search was required to see if a description provided by Jordan Chandler was accurate. Doctors concluded that there were some strong similarities, but it was not a definitive match.[88] Jackson made an emotional public statement on the events; he proclaimed his innocence, criticized what he perceived as biased media coverage and told of his strip search.[84]

If its another kid entirely you could have a point there, but I think you're talking about the first accuser. Yes, they settled out of court. His Mother never believed the accusation and his Father appears to have been after cash -- that happens with rich people too.

The current legal bar for insanity is high.

Rightly so, I think. It needs to be a high bar and then you allow the judge wiggle room for extenuating circumstances.

Anyway, Michael managed his own affairs. He bought the Beatles back catalog, designed his own estate, recorded music. He wasn't under somebody else's control (unlike Brian Wilson in the 70s).

By the end, it seemed he wasn't managing his own affairs very well. And there was no point in there where he wasn't advised out the yin yang on every financial and recording decision he made. Even as the Ultimate Decider, those decisions weren't made in a vacuum. His moral decisions may have been another story.

But your point is taken, and his apparent business acumen (at least earlier in his life) deserves consideration right alongside what his mental state may or may not have been.

I'm not convinced he wasn't mentally competent. I'm just not convinced he was. I can barely imagine what his life must have been like. I don't think the abuse he suffered was any different from any other victim who was able to break the cycle. It's all the rest of his life that was far outside the realm of normal. Far enough to make me wonder if he ever knew what right and wrong was. Never having been given a moral framework does not seem outside the realm of possibility with Michael.

And during all this discussion, the Alan Tudyk Child Molester episode of CSI is on Spike right now. An odd bit of synchronicity.

When I was a kid, and first read Charlie and chocolate factory, Willie wonka scared me. Gene Wilder's version was soft. Johnny Depp 's version was way real . and his version , is where I saw MJ. I don't see MJ much older -- a 10 yr old boy in the same way an alcoholic that became on e at 10 -- isn't a full adult , because in some ways, they never grow up. ( basing this on a friend who did become an alcoholic that early --and despite being a professional -she grew tremendously when she quit).

Does this mean he shouldn't have taken responsibility for his own growth? Of course not. But I'm still ging to place a large amount of responsibility on the parents that let there kids stay with him. He gave off creepy.

his apparent business acumen (at least earlier in his life) deserves consideration right alongside what his mental state may or may not have been.

With disassociation, the person can compartmentalize BIG TIME, and be able to function in business (for example), but not have any ability to have healthy interpersonal relationships.

I don't know if that was the case with MJ, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Jackson's life was sad and tragic in many ways. I don't think we will ever know for sure what happened. The people who were there were Jackson and children, both may have perception of facts different from rational adults. The adults around aren't reliable sources because of the money factor. Some of the accusers were likely looking for cash. We just don't know what really happened. It is also likely that Jackson helped many children. I don't know if he harmed children. I sincerely hope not for the sake of the children that looked up to him.

I remember a Life magazine spread (that tells you how long ago it was) about MJ and Neverland and a bunch of kids who were there for a weekend. There was a picture of MJ leading them around the yard like a conga line, and everyone in the picture is so damned happy. I think kids were the only people he trusted.

What we know factually is that there were two accusations -- one was settled out of court, one was acquitted. There's not "all these children" and "all this weird stuff", there are two incidents that can be analysed.

The other think you can analyse is the hundreds and maybe thousands of children who he spent time with (many of whom are adults by now) who never said 'boo' about anything being wrong or funny or weird.

The one exception I know of is Corey Feldman who said at the time of the second accusation that he wasn't molested, but he wouldn't let his children spend time with and adult the way his parents let him spend time with Jackson. [link] Today he said Michael Jackson was his idol. [link]

Of course it is possible that there were dozens and dozens of children abused and their parents paid off over the years. I don't think there is anything particularly supporting that allegation and I don't think it could have stayed quiet, but its possible.

What's probably not possible is that a pedophile of limitless means molested only two children -- so if we never hear of any others it is incredibly unlikely that these two were true.

Yeesh. I'm looking through Google Books preview of Be Careful Who You Love: Inside the Michael Jackson Case and it's pretty damning.

One excerpt, of a mother whose child spent time with MJ:

"I finally asked him what's going on? and he actually said 'I don't think anymore that Michael Jackson is great and I don't really like him much any longer.' And then [he] told me 'that guy is so weird. We danced together and then he touched my penis. And then he tried to kiss - he called it a "spittle kiss" since it was wet - ...and he didn't like that. 'That wasn't nice Mommy. You don't do that.' He doesn't trust anybody anymore."

There's a lot more like that. Jordie Chandler received a total settlement over $25 million.

Regarding Chandler's attorney, Larry Feldman:

"His wife, Jo Kaplan, ran a public interest firm that defended both victims of abuse and those accused of abuse. It was Kaplan that advised Feldman to get Jordie Chandler to Dr. Richard Gardner, the nation's preeminent expert on false accusations of sexual abuse, immediately. Kaplan explained that if young Chandler could "pass the Gardner smell test" it would be next to impossible for anyone to claim the boy's story was concocted. That's exactly what Larry Feldman did, and Dr. Gardner concluded the Chandler claim was true."

You know it's not just one or two claims. There are many, many, many instances and the details are consistent from story to story. There's plenty of corroboration among staff testimony that MJ did spend that alone time with the kids. You don't pay $25 million to get rid of a nuisance suit.

So were there many many settlements? Or did all those people just shrug and go away?