I don't know - I'm having a hard time following this argument a bit because people keep trying to apply real-life ethics to the narrative, and (as we've seen in the past) I don't think this works very well.

This is a very good point you make, but for my half, I would just like to say I have no particular vested ethical interest in this issue, and think that in fact, we can determine a rightness or wrongness to Willow's action solely within the confines of the show.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

This certainly speaks to the fact that she knew what she was doing was of questionable ethics, at least.

I don't consider this a moral judgment upon Willow, and I certainly agree that the narrative should have carried the day in this situation. I also agree that it probably never occured to Willow that Buffy was in a "heaven" of some kind (though whether her omission of possibility was genuine or deliberate may still be open for debat).

But in the end, Willow's own actions bespeak not only to the questionable ethics of her actions, but of her own awareness of same.

I will never be able to reconcile her doing what she thought was best with the fact that she would not allow anyone to tell Giles, Spike or, most importantly, Buffy's own sister.

That's the thing that makes me think she wasn't doing what she thought was best, she was being selfish and reckless, in a number of different ways.

Which episode was it where Oz and Veruca passed each other on the quad and shared a look?

In some commentary somewhere Joss says they added that shot to that ep as they were shooting Wild at Heart because they had the time and wanted to set it up. And he ended up looking all brilliant, which was just a bonus.

I actually think the thought never seriously crossed her mind. Her reaction shot on finding out, and the conversation prior to raising her, suggests to me that it was a definite gobsmack moment for her.

I guess, knowing the Willow I'd known from seasons 1 to 5, I fall slightly further than this, in that I don't think she let it cross her mind. I agree with you and Hec, that she was gobsmacked though, in OMWF.

Which is to say, I believe Willow honestly thought that what she was doing was best for Buffy and best for the world. I also think that she thought it was best for her, and that she was taken with the notion that she was powerful enough to do so. And that she knew there would be older voices raised in opposition, and she didn't want to hear it. Not because she knew it was wrong, but because she thought it was right but feared it was wrong. And so on.

I'm right with this, except where you have 'she thought it was right but feared it was wrong'. I felt she wasn't very sure it was right, so much as she wanted it to be right, and didn't want to know it was wrong.

there are times when narrative is in the driver seat

I guess I interpret the narrative as making her a wee bit more culpable than you. Her flaying of Warren (tho the boy needed flaying) left me cold, but even prior to it - during Bargaining even, I thought they were showing us Willow was cutting corners to get what she wanted, right and wrong be damned. I think it was the set up for the story she should have had, that became a crack and car crash story.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

This certainly speaks to the fact that she knew what she was doing was of questionable ethics, at least.

Not necessarily. It means she thought she knew better. Bear in mind the visual of Willow directing the fight in the graveyard at the beginning of Bargaining. She was the most powerful figure in the Scoobies at that time and everybody accepted that. She felt she knew better than both Giles (who had ceased to be either a mentor or magical tutor to her - for which he bears some responsibility, since he kept using her magic) and Tara (whose magic was never as strong, and who deferred to her). Willow did not accept or see the dangers in disturbing the balances in magic which Giles and Tara warned against. For her, power was a neutral value and the getting-of-it was what mattered. At the same time, she didn't want to deal with their judgement of her. But I don't think it's because she knew she was doing wrong. She was again taking her hacker mindset into magic and saw Giles and Tara as the the fish in Cat in the Hat, with the finger-wagging and "because it's wrong."

But it probably would've been more consistent for Oz to leave because Willow did a mind-wipe equivalent thing.

lightbulb goes off

Riiight. That would gibe with something else he said where Willow was supposed to go bad earlier but they liked her with Tara too much. I could something similar happening with Oz, but a year sooner.

I'm still trying to figure how Oz would have ever worked as a Jenny substitute death, as I've also heard was considered. I don't think he'd have been quite that key a charcter (yet) for the HSQ required.

Willow thought she knew what was Right.

That's where the hubris lay.

Investigate where Buffy may be? Why? They need her back, and don't people go to hell? Don't they? Of course they do.

Willow was judged by the narrative, and I agree with it, even if I thought her sentence was too light.

I thought they were showing us Willow was cutting corners to get what she wanted, right and wrong be damned.

Hasn't she always been like this to a certain extent? As Hec said, hacker mentality. Ando of course, the way the whole magic thing played out (and whether we like it or not, it is canon, bleh), being as powerful as she was it must have already been affecting her decisions.

I thought they were showing us Willow was cutting corners to get what she wanted, right and wrong be damned. I think it was the set up for the story she should have had, that became a crack and car crash story.

Absolutely. That was her big arc that was carried very effectively from S1 through S7, with a disastrous detour into addiction metaphors. It was in keeping with her character. But...flawed interesting characters more interesting than moral exemplars. I like Willow's story. I'm glad Joss made it dark, and explored the difference between her conception of power and Buffy's (or Tara's or Faith's). She made mistakes - big ones. Did she redeem herself? To me she did. YWMV.

My big Willow defense back in S6 (when folks were seriously losing their affection for her) hinges on "Becoming" and Giles' line that she was taking on powers which could change her, that would open doors that couldn't be closed. I laid out my case that Willow had consistently taken on more power than she was ready to handle, because it was necessary at the time. And all the Scoobs encouraged it, even though only Giles ever acknowledged that she could bear the costs for opening those doors.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

I disagree that it needs to mean this. I can think of several examples of people wanting to hide activities of theirs for fear of disapproval, without thinking their activities are wrong. (One personal example: in my old church, unbaptized members dating seriously was frowned upon. Bec and I dated seriously for two years before we were baptized, and during that time we hid that fact from a number of people; not because we were doing something wrong and knew it, but because we knew how said people would react, believed they were wrong, and knew it would cause problems to have them trying to interfere.

I don't think Willow wanted to confront the possibility that Giles etc would've been right, but I don't think it's appropriate to argue that feeling it had to be hidden is evidence that she thought it was wrong.

I'm right with this, except where you have 'she thought it was right but feared it was wrong'. I felt she wasn't very sure it was right, so much as she wanted it to be right, and didn't want to know it was wrong.

I think this may be looking at different points in the chain of reasoning. Willow had convinced herself that Buffy was most likely in a hell-dimension. If that were so, then bringing her back would be rescuing her, and the right thing to do. So I believe she did indeed think that what she was doing was right, because she'd reached certain conclusions as to the state of affairs.

These conclusions as to the state of affairs, however, weren't as solidly based as she wanted to believe. They were built largely on supposition and a particular emotional state. If she examined that closely and critically, it may well have damaged her certainty. Hence fearing that it was wrong. I don't recall seeing any suggestion of uncertainty from Willow either before or after raising Buffy, until she learned that Buffy had been in heaven. So while I think she wanted it to be right, I think that had led her to a point where she was reasonably sure it was right. (I may be saying that this isn't either/or. She wanted it to be right, which in large part is the source of her certainty it was right.)

Absolutely. That was her big arc that was carried very effectively from S1 through S7, with a disastrous detour into addiction metaphors. It was in keeping with her character. But...flawed interesting characters more interesting than moral exemplars. I like Willow's story. I'm glad Joss made it dark, and explored the difference between her conception of power and Buffy's (or Tara's or Faith's). She made mistakes - big ones. Did she redeem herself? To me she did. YWMV.

MWDoesn'tV much. I'm reading posts (and maybe misreading them) seeing this defense of things as innocent mistakes, that seem to me to have been written as things Willow did wrong on purpose - saying she didn't know, didn't realize. I think she was a bit more culpable than that. This is no dim bulb; she's always thinkin' thinkin' thinkin'. I don't hate Willow. I don't think Willow should have been killed. I don't think they should have eaten up all of season 7, having Willow punished in every episode. I do think one of her interesting flaws is that she knew she was wrong, and resurrected Buffy anyhow, for a mix of reasons: world security, personal safety, she was missing her friend, with a heapin' helpin' of 'because I can'.