This year, our birthday gifts to each other were, umm. Going to see Dark Knight.

Paul is not very gifted at gift-giving, bless him. He can do shiny tech gifts, but I think anything else frightens and confuses him.

So no one watching the sprinting?

I watched the men's 100 after the fact! I think my divorce from sports is complete, though. I didn't feel the thrill I would have even four years ago. Which is sad, because that was one hell of a performance.

I like lists. (in fact, this conversation prompted me to go to Amazon, add a crapload of stuff onto my wishlist and then organize it into 3 separate lists.)

This conversation just reminded me that I need to update mine. I think I may have initiated it a couple birthdays ago for my mothers benefit. She then responded that buying anything online was just too complicated. *sigh*

When I was young, my family never did lists and I would always come home with a box full of knick knacks that I would never use. I never doubted that they loved me and never associated gift giving with quality of our relationship. We all loved each other. We just sucked at gift giving. I think this is the reason I am so pro list.

Lack of lists is one reason I scored a hot pink and green night shirt with "Eta" in fancy script over the left breast a few years back. I don't think that even made it home with me. Jeez.

I hate being asked what I want because I think it's rude to put the onus of gift-receiving on the recipient. I would rather not receive a gift at all than have to come up with a wish list - and that's not me being passive-aggressive, I really truly don't need any more stuff, and I don't like feeling like I'm using my friends and family as personal shoppers.

I don't know if it's true that it's the thought that counts, but with list giving it feels like it's the thing that counts.

No no; at Christmas the quantity of things is the most important part! What they actually are is secondary.

...What?

There's also the thing where a large number of the gifts exchanged in my family are media. And it's really not possible for me to keep track of what books/DVDs my brother wants and hasn't bought for himself already. Often the wish list is more a "I promise not to buy these things myself in the next month" list.

but he had a thing about spending the exact same amount on each child)

This is my dad. In fact, he usually calls me a month or so before Christmas to ask how much he spent on each kid and then on each grandkid, so that everyone gets the same amount. Then, he tells me to go do the shopping and he'll pay me back. Sigh. So, I do ask for lists because I will eventually run out of ideas on my own. There's no guarentee they'll get everything on them, but it allows me to fill in the blanks, plus gives me ideas for future gift giving opportunities.

This is an interesting conversation because you can see how much notions of gift-giving are driven by family tradition and culture.

Yeah, most of attitudes on gift giving come from being brought up by two parents who grew up with few material things.

No no; at Christmas the quantity of things is the most important part! What they actually are is secondary.

This is also true. See above, re: parents that had nothing. We didn't get things from our parents otherwise during the year, so Christmas was quite huge. I don't remember when we started counting, but we did at some point. It became even more excessive after my mom died (at Christmas). Even before my niece and nephew, with just my Dad and four adults, we were always well over 100 presents. Of course, these could be things like industrial-size kitchen foil, as my Dad made it his mission to up the count with silly random (but useful) items.

there truly is nothing like getting a present that is a) unasked for, b) given by a loved one, c) something that clearly shows they thought about you and who you are and what you love.

And this is where the performance anxiety comes from. I've actually stopped giving my best friends gifts--I just trust that they know I love them 24/7 and not to expect anything birthday/Christmas/Hannukah other than my best wishes.

I don't expect it to happen all the time. I think it's just spacial when it does.

I have a friend whose husband is notoriously bad at gift giving, even when he tries hard. (The 50 ft of bubble wrap for her birthday, because she loved popping it, didn't go down well.) So she makes lists, and he has strict instructions that if he veers from the list, to check with one of her friends.

Randomish question, would you rather be asked what you want for a birthday present (thus increasing the chances you'll get something you really want or need) or have the person figure it out on their own (potentially getting you something you don't want or need)?

I'm dealing with this right now, since my birthday is next week. Right now, my answer tends to be, "I don't know" or to advise just getting me a gift cert to a particular store or amazon. If there was something I really wanted, I'd tell whoever's asking (usually my mother or Lewis) what it is I want.

My mother pretends to listen, then she gets me either some approximation of what I want, or something she feels like getting me. Lewis, on the other hand, gets me exactly what I want-- even when he surprises me, he's fantastic about getting me just the right thing.

I have huge problems with people saying they don't know what they want when they very clearly do, but it stems from dealing with my mother who, when asked about gifts, has had a history of airily saying "Oh whatever" when she has a very distinct idea of what she wants, then proceeding to get mad and sulk and/or get downright angry when whatever the gift received wasn't Exactly! What! She! Wanted! because it meant you didn't love her and didn't pay enough attention to know what she wanted. Mind reading also a requirement. This went for all minor holidays in addition to the birthday/Christmas/Mother's Day gift-giving.

Oh, and gift certificates were also a sign You Didn't Care.

My sister and I, we used to start stressing weeks beforehand until finally, at some point in the last five years, when Mom came back with her usual "Oh, whatever," I said, "Okay, fine, you're getting a gift certificate to Sears," knowing it would make her crazy. She's gotten better about saying what she wants.

I like lists, and my family demands them of one another because each of us has such deeply geeky enthusiasms about such very different things that we're, paradoxically, very hard to buy for. My mom? Loves first editions, loves Mary McCarthy, will run over your dog to get at a signed first of anything of Mary McCarthy's--except that she has all but maybe one or two obscure later works, so if you don't have a list you stand an excellent chance of putting a lot of time and effort into getting her something she already has twice over. Me? I love all things Buffy, but I already have most things Buffy, so everyone is very wary about getting me anything else without knowing for certain that I don't have it but do want it.

And so on, and so on. Ask them to buy Hec some music, and they will break out in a cold sweat of gift-failure anxiety (except my mom, who strives valiantly and is always, unerringly, completely wrong).

I get very, very anxious looking for stuff for Hec, so I almost always want, at the very least, some guidelines. But I generally do okay with other people.

The only gift-giving behavior WRT lists that I find really intolerable is the person who (a) asks for a list, and then (b) rejects it. I had a relative pester me for weeks for baby-related presents because she just knew how stressed out parenting an infant was, and she just wanted to get us something we really needed that would make our lives easier, so just tell her anything, anything at all that was really necessary. When I broke down and confessed that money was tight and we had no laundry in the building and the laundromat down the street both did bulk cleaning and sold gift certificates and that would be such a relief and a treat for us, her response was, "Oh, that's not a gift! Your dad should give you a washing machine!" And then she gave us a playmat.

Pfft. Whatevs. I've given people gift cards to grocery stores and drugstores and just come over and folded their laundry, because when I asked them what they really needed and they told me, I went and did what they said. Because the whole point of the gift was what they needed, not whether getting it was Fun For Me.