You Connor haters should just remember that he's only been in this dimension for a year or so...cut the poor lad some slack!

Plus, he did manage to keep Gunn and Fred from figuring out that gee, HE was the one to sink Angel. For a whole summer.

He's not stupid so much as eighteen and easily lead by the short hairs.

(Crazy haircutting people.)

You Connor haters should just remember that he's only been in this dimension for a year or so

See, I remember this, and I don't hate Connor, but I stand by my 'can be dumber than a box of Angel's hair' assessment. I like the character, I love his interaction with Angel and yes, he was raised in a hell dimension by a pyschotic and his attitude is perfectly understandable. But his reaction to Cordelia's less than convincing 'explanations' just makes me wonder in an affectionate sort of way how he's managing those basic motor functions with a brain that's turned to pudding.

He's not stupid so much as eighteen and easily lead by the short hairs.

Not to get all defensive about my age group, but I think he demonstrates a level of density about Cordy's actions irrespective of his age or the status of his short-hairs. I mean-- 'there's always a reason', 'we're special' 'good and evil are just words' and my all time favourite 'I need to imprint the blood of an innocent on my preternatural pregnant tummy'. Neon. Flashing. Sign. Of. Evil. If he hadn't been so obviously trusting of her after each half-assed manipulative lie then I'd cut him more slack, but as it is, I'm stuck at 'dumb'.

But his reaction to Cordelia's less than convincing 'explanations' just makes me wonder in an affectionate sort of way how he's managing those basic motor functions with a brain that's turned to pudding.

Actually, [has everyone seen the end of the season? Whitefont just in case] what happened with Jasmine makes me buy the Cordy thing a little more. When you're actively trying to beat down and shut out any niggling doubts, it's a lot easier to buy into otherwise transparent bs. Obviously she was up to something and trying to manipulate him. But he wanted that connection so freaking badly he was willing to pretend not to understand a lot. It wasn't that he didn't get it - he didn't want to get it. Up to and including the 'virgin sacrifice' bit - it seemed clear, to me anyway, that he was fully aware this was all fucked up. Look at the way he makes his decision and then leaps to act on it before any second thoughts can break through. Bon-bon knew he was being used. He just thought the payoff would be worth it.

brenda ... Gina Torres has just shown up.

Cool. In that case the whitefont stays.

Connor's prime cult material. He's been browbeaten all his life by an excellent manipulator, breast fed on concepts of good and evil, for and against, not exposed to women ...

It's not a slam against eighteen year olds to say that a boy, sheltered, on that side, but that close to puberty put in the positions he was ... I think it completely plausible for him to have done what he did.

And I'm a Connor hater. But not because I think he's stupid.

It's not a slam against eighteen year olds to say that a boy, sheltered, on that side, but that close to puberty put in the positions he was ... I think it completely plausible for him to have done what he did.

Yeah, what ita said, because she said it better than I ever could.

Up to and including the 'virgin sacrifice' bit - it seemed clear, to me anyway, that he was fully aware this was all fucked up. Look at the way he makes his decision and then leaps to act on it before any second thoughts can break through. Bon-bon knew he was being used. He just thought the payoff would be worth it.

But if he knew he was being used, why would he have any reason to expect a payoff that wasn't a knife in the guts? I mean, given the mass of circumstantial 'Cordy's evil' evidence, if he knew he was being used and yet still thought that Cordy was going to produce a bundle of joy, then as much as I feel sympathy for the character, I think in this instance he's acting stupidly.

Connor's prime cult material. He's been browbeaten all his life by an excellent manipulator, breast fed on concepts of good and evil, for and against, not exposed to women ...

I guess it's just a matter of PoV, because on the flip side, he's got the best education in manipulation that a hell-dimension can provide. He understands mind-games--he manipulated Angel effortlessly at the end of s3, and like PM said, he spent three months fooling Fred and Gunn. I don't think Connor's stupid overall, I just think that he's more than a bit dense for falling for Cordy's schtick, partly because of CC's unconvincing performance (which is a bit meta of me, I know, but it just makes Connor's gullibility that much harder to swallow) coupled with her textually unconvincing explanations like 'there's always a reason', and partly because he has good instincts and he's just not using them.

But if he knew he was being used, why would he have any reason to expect a payoff that wasn't a knife in the guts?

Well, Angel spent two-plus centuries being evil, without any noticeable (to Connor) penalty. While pretending not to notice that what Cordelia said didn't really mesh with what anyone could see happening got Connor a shmoopy Cordy blowing smoke up his ass about how in lurve and together they would be.

Yeah, Connor spent a long time with a master manipulator. But he wasnt' an apprentice, he was the primary victim. And Cordelia's approach was very different - it was "do this because you love me (and I'll love you back)" rather than Holtz's rather more straightforward "Evil. Kill it."

I'm not saying he made all the right choices. I'm saying more that his natural naiveity was shored up by a certain internal logic, and that he was so starved for someone to focus on him that he'd go along with almost anything to get that.

Sorry to interrupt the Connor festival, but do any of you have any thoughts on fan fiction? I have started reading some of it lately and it leaves me with an uneasy feeling. Not because a lot of it is x-rated, but because I question my own motives for doing so. Isn't it just weakness to read alternative versions of how things turn out just because I can't live with some of the things the writers do with characters I'm very fond of.

Call me oldfashioned but I remember being very irritated at John Fowles when he gave The French Lieutenant's Woman two alternate endings. Make up your bloody mind, man.

Also, if you read all these different fan fiction versions of things, it gets really confusing in your own head. Which one is ``real''? Hey, I know none of them are real, but Buffy feels real to me. I guess what I'm getting at is: isn't reading fan fiction just a way of hiding from and avoiding what you regard as unpleasant ``truth''?