It's not a slam against eighteen year olds to say that a boy, sheltered, on that side, but that close to puberty put in the positions he was ... I think it completely plausible for him to have done what he did.

Yeah, what ita said, because she said it better than I ever could.

Up to and including the 'virgin sacrifice' bit - it seemed clear, to me anyway, that he was fully aware this was all fucked up. Look at the way he makes his decision and then leaps to act on it before any second thoughts can break through. Bon-bon knew he was being used. He just thought the payoff would be worth it.

But if he knew he was being used, why would he have any reason to expect a payoff that wasn't a knife in the guts? I mean, given the mass of circumstantial 'Cordy's evil' evidence, if he knew he was being used and yet still thought that Cordy was going to produce a bundle of joy, then as much as I feel sympathy for the character, I think in this instance he's acting stupidly.

Connor's prime cult material. He's been browbeaten all his life by an excellent manipulator, breast fed on concepts of good and evil, for and against, not exposed to women ...

I guess it's just a matter of PoV, because on the flip side, he's got the best education in manipulation that a hell-dimension can provide. He understands mind-games--he manipulated Angel effortlessly at the end of s3, and like PM said, he spent three months fooling Fred and Gunn. I don't think Connor's stupid overall, I just think that he's more than a bit dense for falling for Cordy's schtick, partly because of CC's unconvincing performance (which is a bit meta of me, I know, but it just makes Connor's gullibility that much harder to swallow) coupled with her textually unconvincing explanations like 'there's always a reason', and partly because he has good instincts and he's just not using them.

But if he knew he was being used, why would he have any reason to expect a payoff that wasn't a knife in the guts?

Well, Angel spent two-plus centuries being evil, without any noticeable (to Connor) penalty. While pretending not to notice that what Cordelia said didn't really mesh with what anyone could see happening got Connor a shmoopy Cordy blowing smoke up his ass about how in lurve and together they would be.

Yeah, Connor spent a long time with a master manipulator. But he wasnt' an apprentice, he was the primary victim. And Cordelia's approach was very different - it was "do this because you love me (and I'll love you back)" rather than Holtz's rather more straightforward "Evil. Kill it."

I'm not saying he made all the right choices. I'm saying more that his natural naiveity was shored up by a certain internal logic, and that he was so starved for someone to focus on him that he'd go along with almost anything to get that.

Sorry to interrupt the Connor festival, but do any of you have any thoughts on fan fiction? I have started reading some of it lately and it leaves me with an uneasy feeling. Not because a lot of it is x-rated, but because I question my own motives for doing so. Isn't it just weakness to read alternative versions of how things turn out just because I can't live with some of the things the writers do with characters I'm very fond of.

Call me oldfashioned but I remember being very irritated at John Fowles when he gave The French Lieutenant's Woman two alternate endings. Make up your bloody mind, man.

Also, if you read all these different fan fiction versions of things, it gets really confusing in your own head. Which one is ``real''? Hey, I know none of them are real, but Buffy feels real to me. I guess what I'm getting at is: isn't reading fan fiction just a way of hiding from and avoiding what you regard as unpleasant ``truth''?

We have lots of ficcers and fic-readers around here, Kassto. I don't read it myself, mainly because I already spend so much time reading net-related stuff that I don't get to read as much published fiction as I should. But not all fanfiction involves "alternative versions," does it? It can equally be about filling in gaps, telling the stories that aren't told, giving sidelined characters or relationships a voice. From a theoretical point of view I find it really interesting.

Sorry to interrupt the Connor festival, but do any of you have any thoughts on fan fiction?

Oh, we've a whole thread or two on that here.

I have started reading some of it lately and it leaves me with an uneasy feeling. Not because a lot of it is x-rated, but because I question my own motives for doing so. Isn't it just weakness to read alternative versions of how things turn out just because I can't live with some of the things the writers do with characters I'm very fond of.

Well, depends on what you're reading, really.

I can't really speak as a reader anymore. I'm too much of a writer to do so, and writing informs all my opinions on the subject.

I guess what I'm getting at is: isn't reading fan fiction just a way of hiding from and avoiding what you regard as unpleasant "truth''

Not really, for me. Again, I speak as a writer, not a reader. I like to think of the possibilities, the roads not taken. What a given character would do in a given situation that may or may not ever be explored in canon, given the constraints of budget and network TV. I've done missing scenes (filling in after fade to blacks), character studies (which don't really stray far from the text, and are often just snapshots of where you think a character is mentally at a certain time), full-on AUs (what if Giles had died in Becoming II? what if the battle wasn't won? what if Spike had killed and vamped Xander while under the power of the First?), you name it.

I couldn't really be happier with S4 AtS, but that didn't stop me from writing a lot of S4 AtS fic. I'm just so invested in the world that it's fun to take the knowledge of the fictional universe and play in it myself from time to time. (Okay, often.)

Your Fanfic May Vary.

But not all fanfiction involves "alternative versions," does it? It can equally be about filling in gaps, telling the stories that aren't told, giving sidelined characters or relationships a vocie. From a theoretical point of view I find it really interesting.

Or, what Angus said.

I summed up my views in LJ a couple days ago, and repost them now because I am LAZY.

World view of Min's [editorial comment: Writing 'nym is Minim Calibre, not to be mistaken with our absent Buffista Min P.] the first: all fanfic is AU, but some fanfic is more AU than others.

World view of Min's the second: unless specifically disclaimed/rejected by the universe in which the story lives, canon events still happened.

For example, a S7 Willow/Spike wouldn't have Willow claiming she'd never been with a man before unless, for some reason, this was an AU where everything was essentially the same, but it was Willow dating Cordy and Xander dating Oz instead.

I don't personally really go for "this is how it SHOULD HAVE GONE!!!" fanfic, because there's often an agenda, and I'm not very fond of those, because they're so very obvious that they clutter the writing and lead to lazy and poor plotting. It suffers from a lot of "rewrite history the way I want it" basically.

The best of it feels like an extension of the lives of the characters I already know. In that respect, it reminds me of fairy tales told at the French Court, which would take too long to explain properly, but suffice it for now to say that it's all about taking a familiar cast and telling a story where you know the familiar cast, they're who they are, but the story still feels fresh and new. It's a challenge as a writer to make your reader believe that the story you are telling could happen in this world that they're already familiar with. And it's thrilling when you succeed.

Or, what Angus said.

Except with actual knowledge!

Except with actual knowledge!

This is the advantage of having no life to speak of, the other one being that I save a bundle on all the genre fiction I no longer feel an urge to purchase.

Hrrm, going back to the NZ v. Australia thing, wasn't Sunline NZ bred? And I'm fairly certain Happyanunoit was also a Kiwi.

Not, you know, that I totally base my opinions on your countries on the horseflesh you produce. Except when I do, of course.

Yes, and (Phar Lap apart of course) there was also Kiwi, Melbourne Cup winner 1983, which I only know because it was the only year I ever won a Cup Sweep!