sits quietly in ita's corner of the room.
Do you see any goats around? No, because I sacrificed them.
Willow ,'Showtime'
All Ogle, No Cash -- It's Not Just Annoying, It's Un-American
Discussion of episodes currently airing in Un-American locations (anything that's aired in Australia is fair game), as well as anything else the Un-Americans feel like talking about or we feel like asking them. Please use the show discussion threads for any current-season discussion.
Add yourself to the Buffista map while you're here by updating your profile.
Fay - May 13, 2003 11:53:28 am PDT #4733 of 9843
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.
Burrell - May 13, 2003 11:54:53 am PDT #4734 of 9843
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!
What I'm talking about is when theorists/scientists/philosophers start posing the question of whether or not the body is a necessary element to thought/life/consciousness.
§ ita § - May 13, 2003 11:58:49 am PDT #4735 of 9843
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I see. That doesn't indeed align with The Matrix, but is a subset of my interpretation of the scenario.
Still have no idea what's inherently male about it, but I don't read enough theorists/scientists/philosophers to be an expert.
In fact, it seems reasonably core to philosopy -- anything I can come up with (though not explore well, of course) before my tenth birthday doesn't strike me as all too abstract.
Fay - May 13, 2003 12:05:50 pm PDT #4736 of 9843
"Fuck Western ideologically-motivated gender identification!" Sulu gasped, and came.
the question of whether or not the body is a necessary element to thought/life/consciousness.
Ah, I see.
I really haven't encountered this particular idea often enough to have strong feelings about it - my gut reaction would be a big fat honking "well of course it is. Duh!" At which point the theorist/scientist/ philosopher would likely hit me with a big dusty book.
But I do remember getting very animated about the concept of AI, because I don't think that something we could recognise as thought/life/consciousness, or that we could engage with in any meaningful dialogue, could exist without a biological body and a context.
I have no solid basis for this, though, and could perhaps be shown that I am in fact on crack.
§ ita § - May 13, 2003 12:08:45 pm PDT #4737 of 9843
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I don't see any reason the body is a necessary part, but it does assume something's going to be faking some of its functions, or the brain dies. So that's a semantic game.
I'm really lousy at philosophy, because I just end up saying "Well, that could be taken care of by something beyond my ken. And there are lots of things like that."
Nutty - May 13, 2003 12:09:12 pm PDT #4738 of 9843
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."
Every nightmare is a desire trying to break the surface, right? Or so would a Freudian say. I like the idea of head-in-a-jar as an overblown fear/wish of castration.
You know what? A head in a jar still has eyes and ears and can probably tell it's had its body amputated. A brain in a jar, without sensory input of any kind, would be a lot more like the Matrix interface, in that all sensation being fed to the sensation-interpreters is not acutally coming from the body's own sensation-gatherers.
Betsy HP - May 13, 2003 12:14:34 pm PDT #4739 of 9843
If I only had a brain...
There's a marvellous John Collier brain-in-a-jar story.
IIRC, Niven has an ongoing long-time (30 yrs+) marriage to an anything-but-stupid woman.
Yeah, and Heinlein had a long-lasting marriage to an anything-but-stupid woman, but he still had very very strange ideas about women and how they worked.
I haven't heard anybody say "Niven is a sexist". I have heard "Mindless females is a really creepy and disturbing idea."
Burrell - May 13, 2003 12:15:21 pm PDT #4740 of 9843
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!
my gut reaction would be a big fat honking "well of course it is. Duh!"
See, me too. Which is where I think the gender thing, or at the very least gender theory, comes in. And no, I have absolutely no intention of getting into gender theory right now because BOORRRING!
because I don't think that something we could recognise as thought/life/consciousness, or that we could engage with in any meaningful dialogue, could exist without a biological body and a context.
Well let's say it's housed in a computer. Doesn't then computer=input/output interface=body? So see, you still have a body, at least by my reckoning. Which is part of what I found interesting about the Matrix--the whole weird cyborg body of the AI.
§ ita § - May 13, 2003 12:24:31 pm PDT #4741 of 9843
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
Which is where I think the gender thing, or at the very least gender theory, comes in
I know you don't want to get into it, but maybe there's a one-sentence answer to explain to me where gender has anything to do with it.
I just don't see it, not least of all because my reaction is, and always has been, "why not?"
Burrell - May 13, 2003 12:27:42 pm PDT #4742 of 9843
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!
I know you don't want to get into it, but maybe there's a one-sentence answer to explain to me where gender has anything to do with it.
Trust me, there isn't. Or at the very least, I ain't gonna be able to compose it. If you can't see how and where gender may fit in, it would take a very long rehash of the history of gender theory to explain it. Ain't gonna go there. And I think the other readers of this thread are, deep in their heart of hearts, thanking me for that.