Buffy: You tossed that vamp like he was a... little teeny vamp. Riley: You wanna go again? C'mon. I bet this place is just teeming with aerodynamic vampires.

'Help'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


Nutty - Oct 28, 2003 6:02:30 am PST #6303 of 10001
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

I think I get what you're saying, Nilly. The battle is her reasserting her right to the things that have been stripped away -- give me those things back, you melodramatic pancake-makeup-wearing lunkhead! And beating Angel's butt all around the town is a bonus. But, to quibble:

In the final summation, however, it does take weapons, friends and hope to save the world, doesn't it?

Well, they could have had thumb wars instead of a sword fight, but it would not have been as cool. Without Buffy's friends, Giles would (probably) have died, and Angel would have gone to hell soul-free, where he would have been given a tickertape parade. (This presumes Buffy can draw blood with her thumbs, which I don't doubt.) I can't be sure on hope, but my general sense is that Buffy didn't have any hope -- and that the cruellest thing the scoobies could do was show her hope right before she had to run it through with a sword.

it took so long to get any followup on THE BIG LIE.

Well, if you like, you can say the repercussions were immediate, just indirect. Because Buffy wasn't prepared for the possibility that Angel would regain his soul, she completely freaked at the end, and fled. And when she returned? Lied to the scoobies until Giles insisted (because he'd already figured it out). So, one selfish but sort of well-intentioned lie sparked another, and Xander's punishment for lying was spending a summer as Nighthawk being bopped on the head.

Er, by which I mean, the characters never openly discussed the Big Lie, but it all shook out in a way that satisfied me dramatically.


§ ita § - Oct 28, 2003 6:07:40 am PST #6304 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Well, they could have had thumb wars instead of a sword fight, but it would not have been as cool.

No, not that final summation, the one after it. In the end, S7, there's a specific weapon, and specific company that gets the win.

It's not a critique of the ending of S2, just, like Nilly said that if you strip it down to the core you have something strong, but then if you don't, you have something stronger.

Sometimes it takes something stronger to win, as is commented on many times later in the series.


Matt the Bruins fan - Oct 28, 2003 6:11:07 am PST #6305 of 10001
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

(This presumes Buffy can draw blood with her thumbs, which I don't doubt.)

I think todays FW rerun with the Gnarl prety well confirmed that. Ick.


Nutty - Oct 28, 2003 6:11:37 am PST #6306 of 10001
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Point. Although by then the metaphor had been strained into a whole bunch of new, previously-unintended shapes. I think that, against a vampire, Buffy could posit herself without resources as a counterbalance. Against the very definition and source of evil in this world? That's a taller order (and besides they'd done that ending before anyway).

Also the part where, if capital-E Evil (or just a hellmouth) could be destroyed by a slayer doing her slayer thing and nothing more, capital-E Evil would be incredibly wussy.


§ ita § - Oct 28, 2003 6:12:47 am PST #6307 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

if capital-E Evil (or just a hellmouth) could be destroyed by a slayer doing her slayer thing and nothing more, capital-E Evil would be incredibly wussy.

Which it apparently was, up until the late nineties.


Nilly - Oct 28, 2003 6:14:01 am PST #6308 of 10001
Swouncing

if you strip it down to the core you have something strong, but then if you don't, you have something stronger.

Maybe this is what I'm trying to say: in order to get to that position that ita talked about, you have to have something strong at the core. You have to have something strong at the core, for the possibility of it being stronger when what's around it is not stripped.

Then again, maybe not. Words complicated are. Brain break a takeing is.


Anne W. - Oct 28, 2003 6:24:10 am PST #6309 of 10001
The lost sheep grow teeth, forsake their lambs, and lie with the lions.

I think that Becoming 2 and Chosen have some interesting parallels. We've already mentioned the weapons, friends, and hope thing.

Also, both episodes ended with the sacrifice of an ensouled vampire to bring about the resolution. In B2, Willow unconsciously called on seemingly dark forces to re-ensoul Angel, while in Chosen, she deliberately called on light forces to activate Slayer strength in all the potentials. Both episodes ended with Buffy running away from the scene, but in B2 she was running away from friends and family while in Chosen she was running to rejoin her friends and family.

There's more I could say, but it's hard to compose longer posts while at work.


Katie M - Oct 28, 2003 6:44:59 am PST #6310 of 10001
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

Chosen and Graduation Day are the two that I find incredibly similar. (Except I like Graduation Day better, because I preferred Let's Bring Regular People On Board And Together We're Strong! to Let's Make All The Proto-Slayers Strong!)


Lyra Jane - Oct 28, 2003 6:50:27 am PST #6311 of 10001
Up with the sun

= I preferred Let's Bring Regular People On Board And Together We're Strong!

I think that scene works emotionally, but logistically I would have liked to see a little bit more of how they turned a graduating class into an army in a few hours. But I understand the time limitations.


Katie M - Oct 28, 2003 6:54:07 am PST #6312 of 10001
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

Oh, yeah, well, that kind of thing I'm willing to skim over. If I start thinking about training kids how to use flamethrowers, next thing I know I'm back to "Buffy, sweetheart, get a good PR guy, convince the world of the existence of vampires, and take a vacation in Bermuda, willya?"