But my issues with Xander are like unto my issues with Joyce, in that I don't actually have a problem with what the character did in season 2. However having done that, I don't think they should get to pull the self-rightuousness card in season 3.

And for clarity, when I talk about Xander's actions in season 2, I mean partly the lie, but mostly the things he said in Passion. I understand he was grieving, so don't mind it so much then, but cut him less slack in the future because of it.

Have none of you ever said anything in a moment of anger and passion that you regretted later and really didn't mean? Maybe it's just that I grew up in the Emotional Instability Funhouse, but I'm fairly certain we did that on a weekly basis.

Well, yeah. See my later post about Joyce not maning it in the same way my mother didn't mean what she said to me.

Certainly I had similar-sounding arguments with my mother at that age, and statements like Joyce's made it almost irresistable to actually take her up on them, in an "I'll show her" kind of way.

I don't think it's an "I'll show her." kind of thing. When your young and your parent says something as serious as "Get out." or "Don't come back" what are you supposed to think? You're not mature enough to calm down and ask if it's what they really mean, and they're too freaked and angry to take it back. Plus, I think, they're used to having their control unquestioned when their kid is younger. When the kid is a teenager a whole lot of that is lost and the default argument about why they have control is that they provide shelter and food. Look at how many arguments between teenagers and parents come down to "as long as you're under my roof" "I put a roof over your head" etc.

Buffy had kind of manhandled Joyce, just before she started to leave, and Joyce told her to stay out. I cut Joyce a lot of slack in that scene. I understand why Buffy left; she'd lost everything. But I think she knew Joyce would have taken her back; she just didn't care.

I cut Joyce a lot of slack in that scene. I understand why Buffy left; she'd lost everything. But I think she knew Joyce would have taken her back; she just didn't care.

Ditto. Buffy didn't. She basically told Joyce she had no respect for her intelligence or faith in her daughter. She confided in everyone EXCEPT her mother for two years and then expected Joyce to accept everything she told her after basically lying to her for the whole time? Oh, yeah, I think I'd tell the little snot to get out, too. And, hey, I love Buffy, I really do, but I've been there, done that with my 17-year old (now 23 and we're very good friends because I put my foot down) and I wouldn't put up with 'tude either.

I don't even chalk it up to not putting up with the 'tude, so much as Joyce being just bowled over. Here was here night...

COPS: Your daughter probably just tried to murder her friends, at school.

*finds Buffy with Spike*

BUFFY: I'm in a band, and I'll tell you more, as soon as I stick this wooden stick in the chest of the man who has attacked and is trying to kill you, and he turns to dust. Get in the house.

JOYCE: Have we met?

SPIKE: You hit me with an axe once.

BUFFY: Vampires are real. I kill them, when I'm not sleeping with them, or teaming up with them to kill others of them.

JOYCE: Call the cops.

BUFFY: No. They have guns, cars, and are generally at least average sized men. I weigh 95lbs soaking wet, and am lucky if I'm size two. I'm much better equipped. Oh, and you're a drunk.

JOYCE: Wait! (she grabs Buffy's arms)

(Buffy pushes her across the room, and starts to leave, even though she's been told not to, is a minor, and Joyce's own daughter.)

I don't think Buffy was wrong in going to stop Angel, or teaming with Spike, or in anything she did. But this was 2 minutes into a whole new world for Joyce.

Not just bowled over, but realizing just how much of her daughter's life she'd been left out of. Not just left out of, but purposely excluded. It's going to happen eventually in any parent/child relationship, but this was done in a particularly brutal way. Because Buffy felt Joyce couldn't deal. And, not too surprising, since Buffy had never given her a chance to when things weren't quite so hectic, she couldn't. So, yeah, she reacted in a not-quite-appropriate way. Just like DMP, it's one of those moments where so many feelings and thoughts get compacted into just a few seconds of action and dialogue, yet we can spend hours deconstructing them. Gotta love it.

I know Joyce was in shock. Buffy was too. She'd just seen a friend die, been expelled from school, Willow was in hospital in a coma, Giles was captured and being tortured. Joyce had been in denial, she had a real pattern of blaming Buffy for things Buffy couldn't help and generally making things worse.

And Joyce said, if you leave, never come back. I understand that she said it because she was afraid for Buffy and didn't mean it, but I still think she doesn't get to play the 'how dare you leave' card.

And Joyce said, if you leave, never come back. I understand that she said it because she was afraid for Buffy and didn't mean it, but I still think she doesn't get to play the 'how dare you leave' card.

I totally get where Joyce was coming from, and her night of hell - but I'll agree that the "don't come back" card was over the top. And really, the suddenness makes it more so. Yes, they'd had Trouble with Buffy before, and that has to have impacted how she reacted. But "don't come back" is something a frustrated parent drags out when nothing else has worked - not the first night you figure out there's a problem. And it is the kind of thing that, like Heather pointed out, will be taken way too seriously by some teens - while others, like my old self, will be strongly tempted to take it more seriously than they know it's meant out of spite or resentment. I don't think Joyce did anything unforgiveable - but she did take a stance took things to another level, and those consequences were not unforeseeable.

God, reading this thread makes me want to ring up my mum and apologise for the seven years of pure teenage brattiness I put her through, plus the ten years of pre-teen brattiness. (I live in terror of having children because karma would practically require that I end up with a kid just like me, and it would not be pretty.)

I understand that she said it because she was afraid for Buffy and didn't mean it, but I still think she doesn't get to play the 'how dare you leave' card.

Eh, I think I'm deep in the land of Joyce-sympathy at the moment, because I can kinda see her point--from her POV, she had an argument with her daughter, told her 'if you leave, don't come back' and her daughter (again, from her POV) basically did just that for three freaking months, long past the point of where anger or even a belief that her mother really meant those words would take the average teenager. I think in the midst of being angry and horrified that Buffy was possibly going to pull the same thing all over again, Joyce was trying to communicate how much she'd been through existing in that limbo for three months and how much it seemed like Buffy was punishing her for some words spoken in desperation and anger. Joyce doesn't know about the other circumstances, (you'd think the Scobbies would try to explain that other circumstances existed, but since they really knew jack, it couldn't have been very convincing) and for her, I think it's reasonable to be mad that Buffy took her words to such an extreme.

Not just bowled over, but realizing just how much of her daughter's life she'd been left out of. Not just left out of, but purposely excluded. It's going to happen eventually in any parent/child relationship, but this was done in a particularly brutal way.

Good points. I sort of saw Joyce's "don't come back" bit as her trying to get some measure of control over the situation. She needed to try to set some rules and the "if you go, don't come back" is pretty much the nuclear bomb of rules. But really, it was the only weapon in her Mom Arsenal she had left.

I also thought that Buffy on most levels knew that she could have gone back home. She just didn't want to deal with everything right then.