Now, she probably didn't mean it the way she said it

No, and I've got a lot of sympathy for Joyce. She'd been through hell by Dead Man's Party. I just don't think she gets to claim the moral high ground.

She might not have meant it the way she said it, and I think it's a fairly common parent thing to do, saying things in the heat of anger that, because your kid more or less respects you as the law, have unintended outcomes.

I'm fairly sure now that my mom didn't really mean that I should move in with my 23 year old boyfriend and figure out a way to pay for college myself meaning I'd have to get a job and put it off for two years, but that's exactly how I took, "Let him take care of you and you can figure out how you'll get to college."

OK, so I'm a little Season 3 deficient, it seems. I saw one last weekend that I'd never seen but thought I had (how happy was I to be watching "new" Buffy? Very much so). Deadman's Party. Two things: They were so freakin' mean to her. I mean, really. They could have at least asked -- so, uh, what happened to you? To Angel? And, the pink dress she wore for the dinner/party was pretty.

I still want to line every one of them up against the wall, and smack their self-righteous little faces. Except possibly Oz and Cordelia. Possibly.

Oh, OK, three things: Giles' "lean of relief" in the kitchen was beautiful and tear-making.

Well, and Giles. I do want to do things to him too, when I see the above noted scene, but I don't know that it would be fitting to post them here.

I still want to line every one of them up against the wall, and smack their self-righteous little faces. Except possibly Oz and Cordelia. Possibly.

Yeah, not me. I didn't mind the friction and the calling Buffy on her occasional bouts of self-absorption. Plus, I'm willing to chalk most of it up to anxiety over her well-being for a couple months all letting down. Sort of the "your kids cry when you pick them up from daycare because they trust you" deal.

I agree with you about the motivation, DavidS, but the self-righteousness, particularly from Xander, still drives me nuts.

They had no real idea what she'd been through, but they assumed it couldn't have been that bad, is the impression I get.

I didn't mind the friction and the calling Buffy on her occasional bouts of self-absorption. Plus, I'm willing to chalk most of it up to anxiety over her well-being for a couple months all letting down. Sort of the "your kids cry when you pick them up from daycare because they trust you" deal.

If we're speaking of what we saw with our detached, critical eyes, well yeah. I loved it. I loved it, because I couldn't be detached and critical.

It was very involving. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good writing, or that it wasn't effective. To the contrary, it was great. It really pokes me with a pointy stick. I adore Xander. Think he's wonderful, warts and all, so for me to get angry with Xander (I didn't get angry about "the lie"), really says something.

It was very involving. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good writing, or that it wasn't effective. To the contrary, it was great. It really pokes me with a pointy stick.

Yes, this. I think it's a great testement to the strength of the show that a) this still bothers me 2-3 years after I first saw the ep and b)I could defend any character. It just feels so ineveitable and you can see defenses for them and feel for them, even as you want to pound them on the head. The plot of Dead Man's Party was a bit weak, but it's a fantastic character ep.

I saw DMP again this weekend, too. Not only did I want to slap the scoobies upside the head, but that troublemaker Pat got what she deserved.

If you didn't want her to leave and never come back you shouldn't have said it.

Totally. Her words were, "If you leave this house don't even think of coming back." Joyce said get out. Buffy did.

Oh, right ON. I know I'm not a parent and therefore don't have thaty perspective, but every time I watch Dead Man's Party, I want to yell at Joyce and say "You TOLD her to get out -- what did you expect?"

I saw DMP again this weekend, too. Not only did I want to slap the scoobies upside the head, but that busybody Pat got what she deserved.

I thought that they were just venting their concern to her, but they were darned supercilious about it. They don't know about Angel not being Angelus when Buffy killed him, so their snarkiness is extra emphasis intended for us because we do know.

I think there should be zombie masks made available so annoying characters like Pat can be killed over and over until we are all satisfied and can let them go in peace.