I think that Angel's "death" was real in as much as it was real to Buffy. The emotional impact and all the feelings that brought, were real to her.

Also? Doesn't Angel refer to it as her killing him?

I think, when you're talking about a dead-but-demonically-animated creature, that this conversation is...

THE NEW XANDER'S LIE! Woo hoo!

Season 7 stopped working for you right away, huh Rayne?

No, I pretty much liked the season through Conversations with Dead People, but after that the season went downhill quickly for me (loved Storyteller though). Part of it was that I was frustrated that so much time was spent on potentials when it was the last season. The other part was that I ended up disliking Buffy (the character), and I never thought that was possible.

Basically I had issues with the show since Buffy and Spike started sleeping together in season 6 because then the show became all about Spike.

Buffy didn't really die in Prophecy Girl, either

Honestly, I think that is dead. The dead things happened, didn't they? Stopping breathing, normal human dead stuff.

Angel didn't do any of the dead stuff, remaining not dust and all.

Honestly, I think that is dead. The dead things happened, didn't they? Stopping breathing, normal human dead stuff.

Besides, she would have had to have died for the new Slayer spell to be activated.

Angel didn't do any of the dead stuff, remaining not dust and all

This.

Rayne, my sistah in Buffy sadness.

Thing is, after Buffy, Spike is probably my all time favorite character...through season 5. When it became They fuck! They fuck! They fuck they fuck they fuck! The Buffy and Sikey Shooooooowwww!, I lost it. Too much of the shiny blonde thang tapped out my like of the character. When it became Spike the Vampire Layer, well, that wasn't the show I loved. It used to be that the world revolved around the slayer, and then the world revolved around the vampire, and the heroes journey turned into a twelve step program.

Also, again, so much potential, too many potentials.

I think that Angel's "death" was real in as much as it was real to Buffy. The emotional impact and all the feelings that brought, were real to her.

This is where I am, too, though I took many more words to express it less clearly. Actual death or not death (because, clearly, he didn't die -- or, well, he did die a long time ago -- but his existence didn't end when Buffy skewered him) isn't as important as the fact that she thought she killed him. So, yes, I agree with ita that she didn't actually kill him -- but that fact doesn't really affect what that moment meant to Buffy in the context of the story. IMO.

It used to be that the world revolved around the slayer, and then the world revolved around the vampire, and the heroes journey turned into a twelve step program.

Best way of wording it, ever.

It used to be that the world revolved around the slayer, and then the world revolved around the vampire, and the heroes journey turned into a twelve step program.

Worth saying again. Not enough WROD in the world.

For the record, 3, 2, 1, 4, 7, 5, 6.

Kat Perez, ma sistah with the Gift hatred. If I get a monk's spell wish, I want the monks to erase themselves out of existence. Bye Dawnie! Oh, and take Season Asspull of Biblical Proportions with you too.

Allyson speaks many of the things that are in my heart. Sure, I'm not quite the seething cauldron of rage, but she nails it. Yep, there are bright moments to be had, but when you've had a love so pure as Season 3, starving on the scraps of affection at the end is a bitter fate.

I'm catching up on a couple weeks of this thread, so here's where I get to say that I'd be willing to sacrifice Angel and Firefly for 4 or 5 seasons of great Buffy with Joss' head exploding at the end. I mean, I'll take what I can get, but them's my druthers. Greenwalt stays too. For some reason I think of him as the Gene Coon of ME.

I get to say that I'd be willing to sacrifice Angel and Firefly for 4 or 5 seasons of great Buffy with Joss' head exploding at the end

You are dead to me.

sniff

I get to say that I'd be willing to sacrifice Angel and Firefly for 4 or 5 seasons of great Buffy with Joss' head exploding at the end

You are dead to me.

sniff

I'm sorry, ita. Here's my perspective: I love A:TS, but it would have been alright for me if Angel had just walked away at the end of GD, if that meant more Jossian goodness in S4&5 (the ones that exist in my world). I've only seen a couple of eps of Firefly. I'm looking forward to the reruns starting here on September 8th (in their entirety because the Programmer at Space is a true SF guy and an excellent fellow).

But BtVS is the one true show for me. I'd sacrifice a lot more than Angel and Firefly if I could get do-overs on the last 3 seasons.