Lie to Me is a possibility, and it also includes the girl who eventually shows up again in Anne, right?

The only problem is that my inclination is to stay away from early episodes, especially S1, as part of what caused him to write off the show is the cheaper production value of the earlier seasons.

Like, WttH and the Harvest would never work to convert him as I'm pretty sure those were the episodes he had such a bad reaction to in the first place. S2 was a big improvement over S1 (visually), but even S3 was a massive jump in production value from what had gone before.

Sean, I'd vote for Passion or Hush.

Yep Lie to Me had Chantrelle/Lilly/Anne. But beyond that lemme just point out a few things. The theme is very unteenybopper. It's serious shit. You said a lot of his negative reaction was a reaction against his students etc. I think this episode would speak to him because it's got these kids into something they don't really understand, that attitude is mocked by the Scoobs and exploited by the Vampires. I think "Silly kids and their silly obsessions" is something he might get. There's also no snakes to showcase the B-movie production values, and I think it introduces some of the language in a better way than WTTH or an earlier episode/season would.

Lie to Me and Passion might make a good S2 pair to show him. You get all the good stuff Heather points out about Lie to Me, and you also get a significant character death in Passion, so it's a good demonstration of the show's willingness to make permanent changes with long term consequences.

I think that the writer misses an interesting perspective, in that that the Fundie Spikefen choose to completely ignore the negative aspects of the character to the point of hysteria, in order to bolster the point of view that he is a wuv cuddle wuddle poo.

I totally agree.

Also, I wanted to reach through the internet and strangle half the people quoted. Because they are WRONG.

Also, I wanted to reach through the internet and strangle half the people quoted. Because they are WRONG.

Agreed. Don't know if I got worked up enough to want to strangle them, but yes very very, so very wrong.

Agreed. Don't know if I got worked up enough to want to strangle them, but yes very very, so very wrong.

I think actually, the urge is to scream FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCK!!!! at the top of my lungs, hit them with a clue-by-four, and THEN strangle them.

It would be satisfying.

Hmm. This could be why I've not been online much this summer. People. I hates them.

And I watched about 5 or 6 episodes of S1 yesterday, and -- having *not* watched it from the start -- I was wondering: for those of you who DID watch Buffy from S1, did you have the sense that you were watching something unprecedented?

Yes. In fact, I just got S1 on DVD, and I'd forgotten just how much of the adult darkness was there really early on. Angel sits perfectly comfortably with the best episodes of AtS, and they were engaging with really serious stuff right back at the start. Watching Nightmares , I'd forgotten just how psychologically vicious some of it is.

Her dad telling her the divorce was all her fault and that they really didn't need to see each other anymore breaks me every time. I sometimes have to leave the room when I know it's coming.

That's the bit. It's done so utterly straight. That, for me, was the moment the show shifted gear, and became something very special. No previous equivalent show could have invoked such a serious subject as a part of a one-off storyline without being mawkish or crass.