Sadly, the folks who don't drink at all care far too often about the liquor laws affecting the rest of us.

"Willow acted rashly, without thinking things through to her usual Willowy level, in part, because she wanted to exert the power necessary to raise the dead. In part. I know she had altruistic, and selfish (not in the power-sense, but 'selfish' in the sense of scared to death and in mourning) reasons to raise Buffy, too. But she didn't think it all out, because she didn't want to find out anything that might have stopped her. It's exactly why she didn't tell Giles, Spike and Dawn, and why she didn't let Tara and the others know that the spell required the blood of an innocent."

Cindy: I know I'm kind of behind the power curve here with a response, but I'm thinking here that Willow was acting in the benefit of the immediate short-term. The Scoobies traditionally operate in an environment unfriendly to long-term strategizing and consequence management. The demon biker dudes weren't going to wait for anybody to catch up and comprehend things. Somebody at CSIS (Cordesman, I think) wrote a paper about the Buffy dynamics of fighting international terrorism -- temporary alliances, so on and so forth. Willow did what the short-term imperatives called for. She did the same thing with the Slayer power-up. Besides the guilt of telling the gang that the spell required the blood of an innocent, Willow just didn't have the time to argue the ethics. She was willing to make a relatively minimal sacrifice to gain Buffy's return.

Interestingly, one could say that concept was perverted and twisted in Angel S4 when Possessed!Cordelia encouraged Connor to to protect her while she was pregnant.

Sadly, the folks who don't drink at all care far too often about the liquor laws affecting the rest of us

Pretty much seems to be the way smoking laws are going these days too.

I must admit, while in theory I'm against the way the smoking laws are going in MA, in practise I'm perfectly happy to go out to places and not be breathing cigarette smoke anymore. Looks like Cambrigdge and Somerville are due for the chop in Oct., which pretty much means this state is going the way of CA.

which pretty much means this state is going the way of CA.

You know what? It ain't bad. The first time you come home from a rock club and you don't stink like cigarettes it feels weird and wrong. By the third time, you realize "Hey, I can wear that jacket again tomorrow without dry cleaning it"

You know what? It ain't bad. The first time you come home from a rock club and you don't stink like cigarettes it feels weird and wrong. By the third time, you realize "Hey, I can wear that jacket again tomorrow without dry cleaning it"

Oh, I know - believe me. Bars I used to go to and come home from feeling like a frelling ash tray (Salem also went NS, before Boston) I now have no problems with. And I don't have a lot of sympathy for the friends my age who smoke, because as far as I'm concerned, they have no excuses except that they decided to smoke (which i did myself for a few years - managed to give it up with a minimum of pain, although I was a social smoker for more years than I care to recall). If I feel sorry for anyone, it's these older people who've been going to the same dive (or not so dive) bars for decades, and are thoroughly hooked, and the places they are going to aren't the kind of places that necessarily should be non-smoking, IMO.

Like I said, I think the way it's being done is sort of the tyranny of democracy method, but a part of me is (not-so-) seceretly happy it's going down this way.

I'm a lot less sympathetic to smokers than drinkers as far as being restricted by those who don't partake goes. So far as I know, there's not much chance of me getting cirrhosis from people at the next table having wine with their meals.

The demon biker dudes weren't going to wait for anybody to catch up and comprehend things. Somebody at CSIS (Cordesman, I think) wrote a paper about the Buffy dynamics of fighting international terrorism -- temporary alliances, so on and so forth. Willow did what the short-term imperatives called for. She did the same thing with the Slayer power-up. Besides the guilt of telling the gang that the spell required the blood of an innocent, Willow just didn't have the time to argue the ethics. She was willing to make a relatively minimal sacrifice to gain Buffy's return.

HoyaSaxa -- I agree the Buffyverse people have to think, act, and respond quickly. Willow didn't raise or plan to raise Buffy because of the demon biker dudes, though. The Scoobies had planned on resurrecting Buffy all summer. Anya got the urn on e-bay; Willow sacrificed the deer before they even knew there were biker demons. They waited for Giles to leave before they knew there were biker demons. She had time to argue the ethics. She didn't want to.

Y'know, if I may tie together two discussions that have been pretty much separate so far, my idea of a Hell Dimension would be one completely devoid of liquor stores! (and without foamy pics of the female Buffy/Angel cast members, of course)...

And about the idea of a mini-crossover w/ Pylea in "The Gift"...someone could write a fanfic where that happens (and call it an "alternate Gift" or whatever), but I think this would have overloaded the end of "The Gift", if Pylea had spilled into our dimension w/ Angel and co. still inside it! Would've been a cool way for them to return to our world, but there would have been just too much going on w/ all those extra characters in there (I didn't like the rumored idea of the entire cast of Angel appearing in "Chosen" for the same reason)

And about the idea of a mini-crossover w/ Pylea in "The Gift"...someone could write a fanfic where that happens (and call it an "alternate Gift" or whatever), but I think this would have overloaded the end of "The Gift", if Pylea had spilled into our dimension w/ Angel and co. still inside it!

Laughing in the good way, because you did what I do all the time in my mind - called the Buffyverse/Sunnydale - "our dimension".

Would've been a cool way for them to return to our world, but there would have been just too much going on w/ all those extra characters in there (I didn't like the rumored idea of the entire cast of Angel appearing in "Chosen" for the same reason)

I agree with this. The only thing I thought could have been neat is if, when the Angel gang went through the portal to return to their own verse, they'd ended up in Sunnydale just in time to see Buffy die. But there was too much going on in The Gift, for this to happen gracefully.

I think this would have overloaded the end of "The Gift", if Pylea had spilled into our dimension w/ Angel and co.

No, I wanted a big rift in the sky in Pylea or a bunch of Deveels in the town square, or just using the crossover to open the portal home. I wanted the crossover in Angel. The stuff that came through the portal in "The Gift" was cool.

By the way, can someone explain something I just read about Pylea?

I've always thought that it was an interesting take on a fairy-tale story. Finding out later on that it was a late direction due to contract problems with recurring characters explains (to me) a lot of the cheesiness of the sets.

Which characters?