Investigate where Buffy may be? Why? They need her back, and don't people go to hell? Don't they? Of course they do.

I won't disagree that Willow acted with arrogance, but she did have good reason to assume Buffy was in hell since Buffy died jumping into the gateway to a demon dimension.

Considering that she was hugging the Buffybot for comfort, I agree.

Awww man, that was the saddest scene. It broke me.

I never thought Willow pointing Dawn toward that book was her encouraging Dawn to raise Joyce. I thought it was giving her an answer that was more whole than "No we don't do that." The book itself wasn't enough to do it. In fact, Dawn had to find other books to tell her what to do.

Willow was less taking the "we don't do that" party line, than she was taking the "I don't know if that can be done" party line, until Tara spoke up. Then Willow adopted Tara's stance, because... well, because that's what Willow does. But Willow didn't buy it and would have tried it herself (did later), and I think she never thought Dawn would get it done, but I don't think popping the book out was in any way anything other than encouragement.

I post. too. slow.

I saw Willow giving Dawn the book in Forever as encouraging her to bring her mother back. That book was all she needed - when he sees in her in the cemetary Spike says "That book you have is infamous."

When they (Tara) realize it is missing they call Buffy right away because the know what Dawn is doing.

eta: she needed more than that book for the spell - I meant, that book had what she needed in it.

Willow seems to have the attitude w/r/t magic of It's Better to Do It and Ask Forgiveness Later Rather Than Ask Permission First.

Heh. Willow is never about Asking Persmission. Ever.

Which is why I think her actions in raising Buffy were perfectly in character.

Both of them would have kept a fucked-up zombie!Buffy around.

You think so? To me, the fact that Dawn tore the picture and destroyed zombie!Joyce says she would have been willing to destroy zombie!Buffy.

When Joyce died, Dawn still had Buffy. But once Buffy died, she didn't have any family, just the 'bot. I think she would have kept a zombie!Buffy. Hell, she slept with the 'bot. That's very telling.

t x-post on 'bot-sleeping-with-ness

I saw Willow giving Dawn the book in Forever as encouraging her to bring her mother back.

I didn't. Even Willow would've been cognizant of (a) the chances of something going wrong for Dawn to do such a powerful spell and (b) the emotional impact on Buffy. She certainly wouldn't have treated something like Joyce's death so casually. She was saying "Look! Magic!" not "Hey kid, wanna raise yer Ma from the dead?"

I think she knew Dawn would be against it and had no defense.

This--because Dawn was thisclose to having zombie!Joyce but stopped, and after that debacle you know it would have freaked her shit out to have zombie!Buffy. She was obviously uncomfortable around Buffybot!Buffy, because it wasn't real. I have no doubt she could easily have made the jump to deadbody!Buffy and said hell no.

Both of them would have kept a fucked-up zombie!Buffy around.

Spike, maybe. I don't think Dawn would.

I never thought Willow pointing Dawn toward that book was her encouraging Dawn to raise Joyce.

Me either. It was stupid, but the zombie thing wasn't premeditated.

I won't disagree that Willow acted with arrogance, but she did have good reason to assume Buffy was in hell since Buffy died jumping into the gateway to a demon dimension.

But her body was still around. There was the physical location issue--it's been shown in canon time and time again that being in another dimension is a physical body thing, not a soul thing.

saw Willow giving Dawn the book in Forever as encouraging her to bring her mother back. That book was all she needed - when he sees in her in the cemetary Spike says "That book you have is infamous."

No, she had to go steal other book(s) from Giles first. Willow didn't give the "We don't do that" answer, and I'm not arguing that that was what she thought at all, but I don't think her showing the book to Dawn was the same as thinking it was a good idea and encouraging Dawn to do it. That book may have mentioned the difficulties and issues involved in bringing someone back who had died a natural death.

I think a flat out "No" without more detail was not enough for Willow, and she sympathised that it wasn't enough for Dawn.

I don't think her showing the book to Dawn was the same as thinking it was a good idea and encouraging Dawn to do it. That book may have mentioned the difficulties and issues involved in bringing someone back who had died a natural death.

I think a flat out "No" without more detail was not enough for Willow, and she sympathised that it wasn't enough for Dawn.

That's how I saw it.

Even Willow would've been cognizant of (a) the chances of something going wrong for Dawn to do such a powerful spell and (b) the emotional impact on Buffy. She certainly wouldn't have treated something like Joyce's death so casually. She was saying "Look! Magic!" not "Hey kid, wanna raise yer Ma from the dead?"

Interesting. I never even thought of this. I saw Willow going "That whole thing Tara said about not messing with the natural order was sweet and all, but this books says you can do it, so go for it. - I'd help but then I'd be in the doghouse. Good luck!"

Again, I think it was an example of Willow not fully wanting to accept that there would be consequences. In the back of her mind she knows they are there - but she isn't going to let oldstuffy!Willow control her actions - new powerfulwiththemagicks!Willow doesn't let silly old consequences bother her.

Buffy died jumping into the gateway to a demon dimension.

No - it was the gateway to all dimensions.