Hec, do you think Willow honestly never thought Buffy might not be in Hell? That's the part of this debate (well that, and the lying) I'm thinking about.

Willow looked pretty stricken in OMWF when it was revealed. So, I'm thinking she never considered the possibility that Buffy was better off dead.

I don't know - I'm having a hard time following this argument a bit because people keep trying to apply real-life ethics to the narrative, and (as we've seen in the past) I don't think this works very well. People especially get upset when a character violates their particular ethical hot button, but there are times when narrative is in the driver seat. There are also times when The Meta is in the driver's seat (like...Seth wants to leave so Oz fucks around. Now Oz is bad. If Seth didn't leave would Oz have fucked around? No, I don't think. Pretty inconsistent with his previous behavior but they did a fairly good job of justifying it within the context of that episode).

So...I don't really like making the moral judgements on the characters as if they had free will. They're under Joss' control - he makes them do the bad things. Bad Joss! Spank me 'til Tuesday.

Hec, do you think Willow honestly never thought Buffy might not be in Hell?

I actually think the thought never seriously crossed her mind. Her reaction shot on finding out, and the conversation prior to raising her, suggests to me that it was a definite gobsmack moment for her.

Whether she should have given it serious thought is another matter. Personally, while I think the reasoning was a touch sloppy, it's understandable why they'd reach that conclusion. (I'd also argue that even if they decided she was probably in heaven, they could possibly justify the decision to bring her back on the basis of probabilities and expected payoffs.)

This is one of the reasons why I liked so very much the way they wrote Buffy being raised from the dead. Their reasons for doing so, and the consequences, are such a tangle of motivations, moral judgments and expectations.

Which is to say, I believe Willow honestly thought that what she was doing was best for Buffy and best for the world. I also think that she thought it was best for her, and that she was taken with the notion that she was powerful enough to do so. And that she knew there would be older voices raised in opposition, and she didn't want to hear it. Not because she knew it was wrong, but because she thought it was right but feared it was wrong. And so on.

If Seth didn't leave would Oz have fucked around? No, I don't think. Pretty inconsistent with his previous behavior but they did a fairly good job of justifying it within the context of that episode

Well, Joss has said that they always planned on breaking them up at some point - whether that was BS or not, or whether they were going to break them up the way they did, who knows. Which episode was it where Oz and Veruca passed each other on the quad and shared a look? It was well ahead of Wild at Heart, I thought.

ETA - I think you nailed it, billytea.

I agree with Hec. Willow was a girl. A smart, powerful girl drunk with power, but still a pup. Her intellectual understanding exceeds her emotional understanding(Not that I know anyone like that...no, not me!)

Which episode was it where Oz and Veruca passed each other on the quad and shared a look? It was well ahead of Wild at Heart, I thought.

They set that up after they knew Oz would leave. I do think they would've broken them up. But it probably would've been more consistent for Oz to leave because Willow did a mind-wipe equivalent thing.

I don't know - I'm having a hard time following this argument a bit because people keep trying to apply real-life ethics to the narrative, and (as we've seen in the past) I don't think this works very well.

This is a very good point you make, but for my half, I would just like to say I have no particular vested ethical interest in this issue, and think that in fact, we can determine a rightness or wrongness to Willow's action solely within the confines of the show.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

This certainly speaks to the fact that she knew what she was doing was of questionable ethics, at least.

I don't consider this a moral judgment upon Willow, and I certainly agree that the narrative should have carried the day in this situation. I also agree that it probably never occured to Willow that Buffy was in a "heaven" of some kind (though whether her omission of possibility was genuine or deliberate may still be open for debat).

But in the end, Willow's own actions bespeak not only to the questionable ethics of her actions, but of her own awareness of same.

I will never be able to reconcile her doing what she thought was best with the fact that she would not allow anyone to tell Giles, Spike or, most importantly, Buffy's own sister.

That's the thing that makes me think she wasn't doing what she thought was best, she was being selfish and reckless, in a number of different ways.

Which episode was it where Oz and Veruca passed each other on the quad and shared a look?

In some commentary somewhere Joss says they added that shot to that ep as they were shooting Wild at Heart because they had the time and wanted to set it up. And he ended up looking all brilliant, which was just a bonus.

I actually think the thought never seriously crossed her mind. Her reaction shot on finding out, and the conversation prior to raising her, suggests to me that it was a definite gobsmack moment for her.

I guess, knowing the Willow I'd known from seasons 1 to 5, I fall slightly further than this, in that I don't think she let it cross her mind. I agree with you and Hec, that she was gobsmacked though, in OMWF.

Which is to say, I believe Willow honestly thought that what she was doing was best for Buffy and best for the world. I also think that she thought it was best for her, and that she was taken with the notion that she was powerful enough to do so. And that she knew there would be older voices raised in opposition, and she didn't want to hear it. Not because she knew it was wrong, but because she thought it was right but feared it was wrong. And so on.

I'm right with this, except where you have 'she thought it was right but feared it was wrong'. I felt she wasn't very sure it was right, so much as she wanted it to be right, and didn't want to know it was wrong.

there are times when narrative is in the driver seat

I guess I interpret the narrative as making her a wee bit more culpable than you. Her flaying of Warren (tho the boy needed flaying) left me cold, but even prior to it - during Bargaining even, I thought they were showing us Willow was cutting corners to get what she wanted, right and wrong be damned. I think it was the set up for the story she should have had, that became a crack and car crash story.

Primarily, as Cindy points out, I think the most damning evidence that Willow was doing something wrong, and knew it was her hiding of certain truths from people, and her manipulation of the others involved in the spell.

This certainly speaks to the fact that she knew what she was doing was of questionable ethics, at least.

Not necessarily. It means she thought she knew better. Bear in mind the visual of Willow directing the fight in the graveyard at the beginning of Bargaining. She was the most powerful figure in the Scoobies at that time and everybody accepted that. She felt she knew better than both Giles (who had ceased to be either a mentor or magical tutor to her - for which he bears some responsibility, since he kept using her magic) and Tara (whose magic was never as strong, and who deferred to her). Willow did not accept or see the dangers in disturbing the balances in magic which Giles and Tara warned against. For her, power was a neutral value and the getting-of-it was what mattered. At the same time, she didn't want to deal with their judgement of her. But I don't think it's because she knew she was doing wrong. She was again taking her hacker mindset into magic and saw Giles and Tara as the the fish in Cat in the Hat, with the finger-wagging and "because it's wrong."

But it probably would've been more consistent for Oz to leave because Willow did a mind-wipe equivalent thing.

lightbulb goes off

Riiight. That would gibe with something else he said where Willow was supposed to go bad earlier but they liked her with Tara too much. I could something similar happening with Oz, but a year sooner.

I'm still trying to figure how Oz would have ever worked as a Jenny substitute death, as I've also heard was considered. I don't think he'd have been quite that key a charcter (yet) for the HSQ required.