Well, done on the Twizzler car, Gud and Leif. I'm sort of flashing on Homer Simpsons in the land of chocolate.

Excellent car, Gud. It does look very Suessian.

Re: attraction: The thing that irks me about the original argument (which was made off of this board, so my interpretation of the original argument) is that it seems to be such a shallow, reductive thing to say about women, and about friendship. (Even when it was made in "When Harry Met Sally" all those years ago it irked me.)

Why CAN'T men be friends with women they're attracted to (which I read as "women they want to have sex with")? Either it's because:

1) They feel entitled to have whatever they want, and the fact that they are friends with a woman that they want to have sex with, and (presumably) doesn't want them back (or they'd be doing it) is SO HARD FOR THEM TO DEAL WITH that he can't spend time with her on a regular basis/see her worth as a friend over the desire to sleep with her.

2) Circumstances keep them from sleeping with each other (one or both of them is in a relationship) and he can't handle the temptation/can't prioritize the friendship over the sexual attraction.

3) Women of certain attractiveness threshold are objects of desire first, and everything else (friends, intellectually interesting, amusing, caring, a part of your life in every other worthwhile way) second, and to a much lesser degree.

I mean, if the guy making the argument were truly in love with the woman in question, I could see how it would be hard to be "just friends" but you can't always get what you want, you know? And having a rich, diverse, deep, caring group of friends (some of whom you may want/may have wanted at some point) is worth the trade-off of not always getting the person you want when you want it.

But maybe my perspective is skewed, speaking as a person who, for the last twenty years has done little to no dating, for a combination of reasons, having to do with PTSD from sexual assault, poor self-image from being overweight (which I'm coming to realize, through therapy, I probably brought on myself to a certain degree as a protective measure due to #1), and finally, self-consciousness, because after not dating for so long, it's not exactly easy to put oneself out there, especially when I might have a panic attack under certain circumstances.

But all that tl;dr is to say that I have spent a lot of time not getting what I want, and forging wonderful, close friendships with guys, some of whom I was attracted to anyway. Because it was always more important to me to have a close created family around me, because my bio-fam wasn't around, and the trade-off was worth it. I also deal with having a lot of friends that have other things that I want, too: houses that they own, happy marriages, children, cars, Ph.Ds, etc. If I let covetousness get in the way of friendship, I would have missed out on some truly amazing friends that have enriched my life immeasurably. I don't see why "she's hot" is so different.

if-we-were-both-single-and-available-hell-yes

Yeah, this. And I can find people attractive AND then have people I AM attracted TO, like they give that good, low-down feelin' (Thanks, Faith!)

I mean, I have friends that I genuinely like, want to spend time with and would nevereverever DO anything with besides flirt/slap ass (See ABOVE: nothing I wouldn't do in front of my husband; these are CLOSE friends and we are a filthy talking, boob-grabbbing, ass-slapping bunch -- but we have been friends for a LONG time, and boundaries are crystal-clear).

Just because with a few of them, I occasionaly look at and think "YUM! Oh, yeah...!" doesn't mean I'm always walking around with a case of hornypants. It's just...circumstances were different, s/he'd be a person I would have sex with. Sure. S/he's great! Sexy!

It's not the BASIS of our friendship -- FAR from -- but an occasional little soupcon of TASTY! GRRR! that's fun.

And again, long-term friends. I would be VERY uncomfortable with a person I liked and thought was sexy, but who was a new addition to our close-knit circle, doing some of the flirting/grab-assing that my friends of 10-20 years are allowed to do.

And, like I said, nothing happens that wouldn't happen in front of my husband/in front of my girlfriends' DH's. "Man, your DH got RIPPED last summer -- he's looking hot, girl! Awesome!" of "Male Friend, you are looking whoa like fire in in that outfit! RAWR!"

And it's all cool. They feel good, we have fun, no one gets jealous, spouses feel happy because their choice of spouse feels good about themselves (and frankly, other people finding your partner attractive in a context such as this makes you appreciate them more, sometime -- "Hell, yeah, you ARE AWESOME! I knew that anyway, but c'mere, you! RAWR!"

It's not the BASIS of our friendship -- FAR from -- but an occasional little soupcon of TASTY! GRRR! that's fun.

Bonus points for use of the word "soupcon" in this sentence.

Great car, Gud. Love the Lifesaver wheels.

I'd be surprised if every guy couldn't have a relationship with a woman he was attracted to, but I'm not surprised by the idea that some guys (that I might like and respect) can't do it. I wouldn't hold it against them. They might be so attracted, so wanting to get into a relationship with the woman that it stings to be continually reminded of something they can't get. I dig that.

I see your point, ita ! I think it can be different if the guy is already in a happy relationship. (Not always -- sometimes the hornypants are just TOO hot.)

Thanks, Jess! (I was torn between soupcon and lagniappe.) /geek

Huh.

Should I put a period when a sentence ends with "ita !"?

Unless it's a question?

Yeah, I definitely am ALL ABOUT having friends that I think are attractive. I find almost all my friends attractive. But I do think it is harder if I am attracted TO my friends--yes, there are some (often amongst the swarm of drag kings I see annually), and some of them I make out with (and probably won't do anything more with ever), but honestly, if I'm really attracted to someone, and they lived nearby, it WOULD be hard to hang out with them on a friendship-only basis, regularly. Because I'd always be wanting more. A glimmer of attraction sure, but someone I'm crushing on? Too much, too hard to handle. It would just depress me.