Oh, at first it was confusing. Just the idea of computers was like — whoa! I'm eleven hundred years old! I had trouble adjusting to the idea of Lutherans.

Anya ,'Get It Done'


Natter 64: Yes, we still need you  

Off-topic discussion. Wanna talk about corsets, duct tape, or physics? This is the place. Detailed discussion of any current-season TV must be whitefonted.


Hil R. - Nov 10, 2009 4:32:36 pm PST #18524 of 30001
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

Here's the lower court ruling [link] and here's the ruling overturning it [link] (I haven't read the second one yet.)


Typo Boy - Nov 10, 2009 4:37:42 pm PST #18525 of 30001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

I guess I don't see how saying that all children of converts would be accepted as Jewish would be discriminating by ethnicity.

Because that is choosing by birth, not by belief or practice. Again the problem is that being "Jewish" is both a religion and an ethnicity. But UK law only allows discrimination on religious but not ethnic grounds. The fundamental problem is that UK law can't recognize "son of a Jewish mother" as valid grounds to accept or refuse to accept a student for admission to a school.


Hil R. - Nov 10, 2009 4:45:41 pm PST #18526 of 30001
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

But I found a bunch of Christian schools in the UK that say that a kid gets preference if his or her parent regularly attends church.

And I think your definition of "religion" is too narrow. Judaism is a religion, which defines who is a member based on religious law. It makes no sense to say that Judaism is enough of a religion that it can have a Jewish school where they're allowed to give preference to Jewish kids, but not enough of a religion that the religious rules defining who those Jewish kids are don't hold. This is trying to make Judaism fit into laws that were written with Christianity in mind, and it just doesn't work.


Hil R. - Nov 10, 2009 4:50:32 pm PST #18527 of 30001
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

Also, it looks like the official admissions policy of the school says that kids who are planning to convert and are enrolled in course toward that end should be considered Jewish for admissions policies, but the school didn't actually abide by its own rule on that one -- the father tried enrolling his kid in conversion classes, but then the school said that he had to have been in the classes for a few years before the school would accept him.


Typo Boy - Nov 10, 2009 4:54:56 pm PST #18528 of 30001
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

But I found a bunch of Christian schools in the UK that say that a kid gets preference if his or her parent regularly attends church.

None which base that on attendence before the child's birth. Note that post-birth conversion would not make the child Jewish.

It makes no sense to say that Judaism is enough of a religion that it can have a Jewish school where they're allowed to give preference to Jewish kids, but not enough of a religion that the religious rules defining who those Jewish kids are don't hold.

The judge actually answer that question with the example of the Dutch Orthodox Church which does not recognize Black people as capable of being Christian. Until quite recently, the Mormon Church had similarly discrimantory policies (well not quite the same -more the way Catholics treat women). The right of a religion to designate stuff and HAVE IT ENFORCED is not unlimited. Old joke: How legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Answer: four, calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

I admit, I look forward to seeing Catholic Schools in the UK required to train woman as Priests, even though the religious branch will never actually admit them to the Priesthood.


Burrell - Nov 10, 2009 4:58:12 pm PST #18529 of 30001
Why did Darth Vader cross the road? To get to the Dark Side!

I'm sorry, msbelle.

It's not just me.

It's not. I'm pretty sure DH says both too.


Lee - Nov 10, 2009 4:59:01 pm PST #18530 of 30001
The feeling you get when your brain finally lets your heart get in its pants.

I think I caught what Dana had this morning.

There is not a single food item in my apartment that I am sure I could eat without puking.


§ ita § - Nov 10, 2009 4:59:15 pm PST #18531 of 30001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

But I found a bunch of Christian schools in the UK that say that a kid gets preference if his or her parent regularly attends church.

Christianity doesn't cross ethnicity/religion lines. My parent attending church doesn't affect my ethnicity.

They should have enforced that preference at the convent school my sister went to. She mistakenly took communion (we're godless heathens) and was scarred for years because of it.


Hil R. - Nov 10, 2009 5:00:11 pm PST #18532 of 30001
Sometimes I think I might just move up to Vermont, open a bookstore or a vegan restaurant. Adam Schlesinger, z''l

Hmm. I'm reading through the decision, and it seems like part of the argument is that, if they say that Jewishness is not a race or ethnicity, then that will set a precedent that antisemitic acts can't be prosecuted under the laws against racial or ethnic discrimination. But wouldn't it be an immediate corollary of that reasoning that this decision would set a precedent that Jewishness is an ethnicity and this kid (and all other people who are the children of converts, or are converts themselves) are not ethnically Jewish and therefore antisemitic acts against them could not be considered ethnic discrimination? I mean, the court can't rule that the same person was discriminated against for being part of an ethnic group and also for not being part of that ethnic group, right?


Lee - Nov 10, 2009 5:01:34 pm PST #18533 of 30001
The feeling you get when your brain finally lets your heart get in its pants.

Sorry for the bad night, msbelle.