Where's slash, where's not... it's tricky. At the moment, I have to take it on a case by case basis, imagine it both ways round, and even then I can change my mind quite readily.

preferably ones that acknowledge that same-sex desire won't necessarily occur in the same contexts (close friendships between "equals") where we would tend to look for it these days.

Would you care to expand on where it would occur? You've got me interigued.

And while we're on the subject, has anyone read Robert Nye Mrs Shakespeare, The Complete Works ? It's RPF, with a good dose of RPS. And stylistically quite good, IMHO.

And while we're on the subject, has anyone read Robert Nye Mrs Shakespeare, The Complete Works ? It's RPF, with a good dose of RPS. And stylistically quite good, IMHO.

I have The Late Mr. Shakespeare and loved it. Must. Get. This.

Am-Chau--the very short and oversimplified version: traditionally, in Western cultures, sex between men happened most frequently in strongly hierarchical contexts, whether the hierarchy was of age, of status, of power or of class. (Of course this was also true, by definition, of sex between men and women.)

Is Nye a British-type author? I don't believe I've heard of him.

I have The Late Mr. Shakespeare and loved it. Must. Get. This.

Do, Cashmere-- who's The Late Mr. Shakespeare by, BTW? I haven't read that.

the very short and oversimplified version: traditionally, in Western cultures, sex between men happened most frequently in strongly hierarchical contexts, whether the hierarchy was of age, of status, of power or of class. (Of course this was also true, by definition, of sex between men and women.)

So (thinks, picks random examples) Romeo/Mercutio (equals) is less likely than Olivia/Viola (unequal power)?

Theo: Googles Yes, British, so it says here.

This provides a biblography, a quick glance at which reveals that I'm an idiot, as he wrote The Late Mr. Shakespeare as well as Mrs Shakespeare: The Complete Works.

No, I'm just talking about men. Women didn't officially have a sexuality so they could get away with more! (Or something.)

So, slash and femslash are completely different issues here?

Right.

That makes a lot of sense, actually, but it makes coming up with examples harder. Plus the fact that the Shakespeare plays I've studied in enough detail to feel I know them as slashable canon are few. Romeo/Mercutio (equal) vs. Romeo/Paris (unequal, and possibly based on a false assumption regarding the actual text)? Julius/Brutus (nearly-equals) vs. Cassius/Pindarus (very unequal-- Pindarus is a servant if not a slave)?

edit: or should I just shut up already?

but the whole damned point for me is that Sam's relationship with Frodo is not selfish

Mmmm. Not having been in it, I could be talking rubbish here, but what about being in Love with someone makes it intrinsically more selfish than being friends?

Am-Chau: no, don't shut up!

Yeah, I mean as I said it's a simplification, but my understanding is that asking a friend to have sex with you would be a bit like asking them to shine your shoes. Also, sex was something one person did to another person, it wasn't seen as a mutual act at all.

But of course I'm talking about sexual acts, not sexual desire; there's nothing to say that Romeo wasn't gazing longingly all day at Mercutio, then slipping one of the Montague servants a fiver for a quick one in the stables at night.

Also, your bringing up the classical plays is a useful reminder that these things were much more codified in the ancient world than they were in Shakespeare's: sex between men was completely accepted, but only in certain, strictly hierarchical, situations, and with strict rules about who was allowed to do what to whom. The hierarchy stuff was still there later on, but in a less codified way because of course the acts themselves became illegal so everything went underground.