Willow: Something evil-crashed to earth in this. Then it broke out and slithered away to do badness. Giles: Well, in all fairness, we don't really know about the "slithered" part. Anya: No, no, I'm sure it frisked about like a fluffy lamb.

'Never Leave Me'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


§ ita § - Sep 13, 2003 7:17:16 am PDT #5582 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

You decided on the number of 10 or 20 ninnies per slayer. It may not be that. Do the watchers have any idea who'll be called next? Might they wait and see if their moron/hussy is called before they kill her? Was Giles, good watcher extraordinaire, willing to kill Dawn, sister of a Slayer and someone with whom he had a personal relationship that probably exceeded Council boundaries?


Sean K - Sep 13, 2003 7:17:46 am PDT #5583 of 10001
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

Yeah, but if we're really going to get into the ethics of the whole slayer thing, then we need to deal with the fact that just about any way you look at it, what Buffy's plan in Chosen accomplished (giving a whole bunch of girls the slayer power with asking them how they felt about it, or if they wanted it) was ethically no different from what the Shadow Men did to the first slayer and all that came after her.


Nutty - Sep 13, 2003 7:27:31 am PDT #5584 of 10001
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Well, Spider-man aside, Buffy gave the girls a lot of power, but did nt specifically -- that we saw -- give them responsibility. Or anyway, not more than "Hey, have some power, hit the ball/don't take that shit/live your life." There could be a Machiavellian tragedy in some council remnant rounding up all the new slayers and making them do _____, but the fact is, even if you have slayer power, if you don't know that vampires exist, you're just a strangely powerful woman.

You decided on the number of 10 or 20 ninnies per slayer. It may not be that.

How many ninnies is enough? How many innocents murdered pointlessly, with premeditation, does it take, before the "protecting the innocent" party line is proved to be a lie? I'm thinking only one, myself.

Was Giles, good watcher extraordinaire, willing to kill Dawn, sister of a Slayer and someone with whom he had a personal relationship that probably exceeded Council boundaries?

Yep, he brought up the possibility (although didn't apparently have the time to work out other options). He acted it out, on Ben. (Who wasn't really an innocent, but the effect was similar.) I think Giles was totally aware of his own awfulness in that moment, and I also think it's telling he didn't consult anyone else when he murdered Ben. He got the desired result, but it was a really disturbing moment.


Sean K - Sep 13, 2003 7:39:11 am PDT #5585 of 10001
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

Well, Spider-man aside, Buffy gave the girls a lot of power, but did nt specifically -- that we saw -- give them responsibility.

Well, true there was no specific responsibility gifted to any of the women, but was there necessarily a responsibility gifted by the Shadow Men? I would say that enforced responsibility was imposed afterewards, and should be considered seperately from the granting of powers of ultimately demonic origin.

Which brings up another point, actually. Though we have nothing textual to point to, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the slayer power would be something of a demonic activity magnet, eventually forcing them into confrontations with Forces People Were Not Meant To Know. That good things come from the granting of those powers (the self-confidence of the batter, the woman who got give back to her abuser as good as she'd gotten and then some...) doesn't really mitigate the ethics of the act of granting.


§ ita § - Sep 13, 2003 7:42:52 am PDT #5586 of 10001
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Was Dawn too much to save the world, then?

Admittedly, I'm very irritated by the "I'd rather let a million faceless people die, than this one person (probably female and younger than I am) with a face die. Except -- she'll die anyway if I don't foil the doom. Wait! Look! Another way out!" that permeats so much action heroism in US entertainment these days.

Everyone has a face.

So that's what's driving me, and I'll stand down now.


Holli - Sep 13, 2003 7:54:59 am PDT #5587 of 10001
an overblown libretto and a sumptuous score/ could never contain the contradictions I adore

I've read some fic that posits that what Buffy did in Chosen wasn't a mass granting of Slayer power to every Potential, regardless of whether they wanted it-- rather, it offered them a choice to take the power, on some subconscious level, and only those who were willing to take the power did so. Which is in line with her whole "I'm giving you a choice" speech, and removes the possibility of completely unwilling draftees.


Matt the Bruins fan - Sep 13, 2003 8:07:59 am PDT #5588 of 10001
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

If he had had any vision or creativity, he would long since have been trying to come up with a way to do what Willow did in Chosen. Or at least warning people, for crying out loud.

I think warning people at large about vampires would be an extraordinarily bad idea—the opposition, once revealed to the public, could offer immortality and superhuman power to anyone who chose their side. The population explosion of the undead that Sunnydale experienced could become the standard everywhere. The Council is probably right in keeping their war a secret.

Which brings up another point, actually. Though we have nothing textual to point to, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the slayer power would be something of a demonic activity magnet, eventually forcing them intoconfrontations with Forces People Were Not Meant To Know.

I've always felt this must be the case. Even in Sunnydale, what are the odds that the same girl's mother would date a killer robot, bring home a mask that could raise zombies, and have a crazy just-escaped vampire pick her to kidnap in the space of a year? It's quite likely that the Slayer either draws supernatural badness to her like a lightning rod or is herself attracted to it, no interference from the Watchers needed.


brenda m - Sep 13, 2003 8:11:43 am PDT #5589 of 10001
If you're going through hell/keep on going/don't slow down/keep your fear from showing/you might be gone/'fore the devil even knows you're there

But Holli, is there anything textual to support that, other than wishing it were so? It's a nice idea, but it doesn't seem on target to me. I do think that removing the "one girl in all the world" component is huge, ethically. It does give them a choice that previous slayers wouldn't have had, both in terms of moral responsibility and in terms of how actively the council would go after them if they did choose to stay out of it.


Sean K - Sep 13, 2003 8:19:17 am PDT #5590 of 10001
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

Which is in line with her whole "I'm giving you a choice" speech, and removes the possibility of completely unwilling draftees.

And that would make the ethical difference between that, and what the Shadow Men did. We just don't have anything textual to point to to know that was the case.

Personally, I'm certain that wasn't what Joss intended to set up in the text. I just think he didn't fully consider of the ramifications of what he chose to present, and was wrappingthe show up as best he could.

But I do think there were some unintended effects of the events of Chosen that have implications rather the opposite of what Joss wanted to say (unless it was a beautiful subtle jab at SMG, which I also wouldn't put past Joss...).


Cindy - Sep 13, 2003 11:01:39 am PDT #5591 of 10001
Nobody

Personally, I'm certain that wasn't what Joss intended to set up in the text. I just think he didn't fully consider of the ramifications of what he chose to present, and was wrappingthe show up as best he could.

I think that problem only arises if you're looking for it, or if you look at slayers in our world, rather than in the Buffyverse. In Joss's Buffyverse, the power was never the burden for Buffy or slayers past. The burden was being the only one with the power, and being told the fate of the world so depends on you that you have to forsake family, friends, and most things having to do with a normal life.

Within that specific context (which was well established through the series), Buffy and Willow didn't burden those girls. They bestowed on them their birthright. They lifted the burden of being alone, of living just for the kill, in the action of death, the blood cry, the penetrating wound. Now they'll be recruited rather than drafted. Some will refuse. Some will--no doubt--misuse their powers, or be exploited for their powers. But that's a risk that was run with a single slayer as well. Now, when a slayer has finals, or has to get a job to support her little sister, or when her mother has a brain tumor, there's someone else to fill the gap.