If I do as I've been doing for 1000 years, and morals change around me, how am I corrupt? Evil, heartless, self-serving, but since I haven't changed, degraded ... I can't be corrupt.

Yes, but the CoW isn't populated with the same people it was 1000 years ago. The institution and power it brought, corrupted modern watchers far more than it corrupted ancient watchers.

An argument can be made that instituion of slayerhood (as it was run) was (in our eyes) probably always corrupt, because it ignored the needs and wants of the slayer. But for must of history, it ignored her needs and wants, in a time where the needs and wants of women in general were ignored.

There comes a point in time when the Watchers themselves should have recognized that some of the policies of their institution were making them do things that were (finally) considered morally reprehensible. Those watchers chose to continue in that vein, rather than adapting to the cultural mores.

It's like slavery. I can accept that throughout world history, otherwise good, moral people owned slaves. They were ignorant that they were doing something evil. Slavery was still evil, but it didn't follow that someone was choosing to participate in something he knew was corrupt, just because he owned slaves.

As times changed, people became aware of the evils of it. This is one of the big criticisms of Thomas Jefferson. He knew slavery was evil, but had slaves. When the evil practices are finally recognized as evil, that's when there's a choice. Change your ways, and get rid of the evil practices, or allow the institutional corruption to bleed over, and corrupt the individual. The individual, even though he realizes (or should realize) he is doing something wrong, keeps doing it, because he wants/needs/enjoys the power. He rationalizes it by saying, "This is how it's always been. If I change this, I lose that."

The institution and power it brought, corrupted modern watchers far more than it corrupted ancient watchers.

Yeah, it's semantics. The people, by my definition might be corrupt (unless they work with the Council because they're that way anyway). The institution? NSM.

Yeah, fandom had a big hate-on for the Council, particularly following Helpless. I don't see them as evil. It's odd, I see a real old world-new world dynamic in the tension Joss posed between the Council and Buffy's role as the Slayer. Buffy is very American and individualistic, the right of the individual to find her own path, go shopping, whatever, vs. the Council's very British perspective of duty, honouring traditions, fighting the long fight. Yes, we are meant to see the Council as having become hide-bound and antiquated, but let's not forget that they are the ones who have been the guardians of the knowledge and the traditions and the tools to equip the Slayer down through the ages. Like good soldiers, they would have taken on the Slayer's role if they could have, and they are trained to fight as well as they are able when they must.

How evil or self-serving are they? They are fighting the secret war the only way they know how, as best they can, down through the centuries, at great sacrifice. From the old world perspective, it is their calling and their duty. They are like the secret service in an Occult war.

They are only corrupt, in my view, if they "lose the mission", if they forgo their ideals and their cause. As far as I can tell, even though some of their methods are abhorrent (and I admit, I fail to see the purpose of the Helpless test, much like anyone else), they never give up the fight and are fighting the darkness at the point when they are destroyed. I wouldn't be surprised if a bureaucracy somewhat like the one that existed, grew up to take its place from the Watchers who survived. There needs to be a way of communicating and sharing the information they have to this whole new generation of Slayers.

Yeah, it's semantics. The people, by my definition might be corrupt (unless they work with the Council because they're that way anyway). The institution? NSM.

I was one of the ones who saw the institution as corrupt, even if some of the people (like Giles) weren't. Risk your life to do this. Ruin your life, even when you're not risking it. You can't tell anyone about the biggest thing in your life. Follow our orders. Get no pay.

Yeah, fandom had a big hate-on for the Council, particularly following Helpless. I don't see them as evil. It's odd, I see a real old world-new world dynamic in the tension Joss posed between the Council and Buffy's role as the Slayer.

I see it as a real analogy for slavery, actually. I also see it as an analogy for the oppression of women, long before season 7. It had a very important mission, but it completely sacrificed the lives of these girls, without regard for them as humans. It did good by doing evil, sometimes just because.

So you think the institution started out clean? Even after we saw how the Shadow Men forced Slayerhood on the line?

Sorry, I didn't mean to say those things then disappear, but I had to run to Lush, so it was Light And Goodness work.

I see it as a real analogy for slavery, actually. I also see it as an analogy for the oppression of women, long before season 7. It had a very important mission, but it completely sacrificed the lives of these girls, without regard for them as humans. It did good by doing evil, sometimes just because.

What if the Slayer was a man, 22, just out of university? The way many of the real secret police forces recruit (and in more recent years, women just as much) or armed forces out of high school, for that matter? I think both the slavery and oppression analogies are there, but I think weighing too much on them disconnects from the text, rather than the subtext, for me.

So you think the institution started out clean? Even after we saw how the Shadow Men forced Slayerhood on the line?

I don't buy a direct connection between the shadow men and the WC. I realize we are supposed to infer it, but it doesn't add up for me. I see the WC more like the way Giles operated, over the centuries rediscovering bits and pieces that had been lost, puzzling together prophecies, like a Templars-LXG-Doctor Strange connection kind of feel to it, if you take my meaning. Quentin Travers, unpleasant fellow though he may be, wasn't there for the creation of the first slayer. He may well agree with the methods, but would the events have been any less of a mystery to him than they were to Giles? Would he have seen Nikki's shadowcaster and been able to follow it in?

So you think the institution started out clean? Even after we saw how the Shadow Men forced Slayerhood on the line?

Was that to me, or to John? I don't think it started out clean at all. I think the mission was good/necessary. I don't think the how of it was ever right. I think the how of it got more and more wrong as time went on.

What if the Slayer was a man, 22, just out of university? The way many of the real secret police forces recruit (and in more recent years, women just as much) or armed forces out of high school, for that matter? I think both the slavery and oppression analogies are there, but I think weighing too much on them disconnects from the text, rather than the subtext, for me.

When did the CoW ever recruit? They drafted, and they drafted a force of one, who had to give up her entire life until death. Even soldiers get R&R. Given what we know of the Cruciamentum, what do you think they did to girls who refused to accept their "sacred birthright"?

What if the Slayer was a man, 22, just out of university? The way many of the real secret police forces recruit (and in more recent years, women just as much) or armed forces out of high school, for that matter?

Cindy's already given half of my answer. The other half is, the Slayer is effectively drafted. She doesn't really have a choice to say yea or nay. If Kendra is typical (and, since Faith and the S7 group apparently had Watchers even as Potentials, I'd say she certainly isn't a freak of Slayerdom), she's effectively brainwashed from childhood to think Slayer fashion.

Armed forces and police forces, at least generally in the U.S. these days, seek volunteers. This goes back some years, but my brother went into the Army when he graduated high school. He and the local recruiter would visit regularly all summer (he had some problems getting in, IIRC, because he was underweight). Recruiter started to express an interest in me as well until I (politely) made it clear that I planned to continue college.

Now, the local economy at that time sucked so hard that my brother's only other real option was unemployment. So in that sense, you might say he didn't have a choice. But that still isn't the same as the Slayer's nonchoice.

Armed forces and police forces, at least generally in the U.S. these days, seek volunteers.

Adult volunteers.

(I still don't think Kendra was typical, except of slayers from her culture and similar cultures. There was too much of a keep it secret--keep it safe attitude about Buffy's identity.)

Armed forces and police forces, at least generally in the U.S. these days, seek volunteers. This goes back some years, but my brother went into the Army when he graduated high school. He and the local recruiter would visit regularly all summer (he had some problems getting in, IIRC, because he was underweight). Recruiter started to express an interest in me as well until I (politely) made it clear that I planned to continue college

That's in the US. Now. Many western countries still have the draft and even yours did until not that long ago, historically speaking.

Seen Band of Brothers? Soldiers in wartime don't get a lot of R&R.