Am I supposed to be changing my clothes a lot? Is that the helpful thing to do?

Anya ,'Storyteller'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 11:44:46 am PDT #4696 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Faith had never saved the world, but she was actually an integral part of the attack on the Hellmouth beast and the Sisterhood of Jhe during "The Zeppo", so she gets some credit for that.

Yeah, she gets one-sixth of a world saver credit, but not as a leader. Certainly none of the Scoobs trusted her enough to consider her reliable, or as an apt replacement for Buffy. Hell, she sold them all out to throw in with The Mayor.


Jeff Mejia - Aug 15, 2003 11:45:42 am PDT #4697 of 10001
"Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing towards oblivion." Dogbert to Dilbert

I may be remembering wrong, but I think that all Dawn had to steal from the magic shop was ingredients and then of course the eggs from the demon. The book Willow gave her had the spell. I thought anyway.

She stole a book and stuffed it in her bookbag right away, then snuck down the ladder and was worried about getting caught by Giles. Of course, part of this scene is cut in the FX repeat version of this, so it my be that tina hasn't seen the full scene.

And besides, those ingredients and books didn't work anyway. It wasn't until she went to see Doc and was told about the eggs and given "instructions" that the spell could work.


tina f. - Aug 15, 2003 11:51:06 am PDT #4698 of 10001

OK. Brain is overloading.

Here is what I remember seeing: it is the book that Willow pulled out for Dawn that Dawn had by Joyce's grave. I remember her pushing some books aside to get to some ingredients at the magic shop.

I thought I remembered Willow faking surprise when Tara says the book is missing because she knows Tara would be upset with her for encouraging her to seek magic to help her bring her mom back.

These could all be false memories implanted in me by monks though.


Jeff Mejia - Aug 15, 2003 11:56:59 am PDT #4699 of 10001
"Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing towards oblivion." Dogbert to Dilbert

Yeah, she gets one-sixth of a world saver credit, but not as a leader. Certainly none of the Scoobs trusted her enough to consider her reliable, or as an apt replacement for Buffy. Hell, she sold them all out to throw in with The Mayor.

I wasn't trying to make the point that Faith was a trusted leader or anything. But her contributions when she was on the white hat side is often totally ignored. Since the point being made is that it may be that she could have "stepped up" and filled the void left by Buffy's death, at least in the world-saving business, I think this should not be ignored.


helentm - Aug 15, 2003 12:00:48 pm PDT #4700 of 10001
Religion isn't the cause of wars. It's the excuse. - Christopher Brookmyre

I'm with DavidS re: Willow. She liked the power, sure, but once Buffy was gone, she had no choice but to use it. She became the "Buffy" of the group.

This is interesting, Willow's been shown to have power equal to Buffy's but consistantly no mentor like Giles. I think after season 5, Buffy would have totally ready for coping without Giles, apart from the being raised from the dead thing. But he was there through her formative high schooly period, helping her not to do a Faith. Every time we see Willow doing magic it's alone, or with teenagers(and not fantastically sensible teenagers at that.) Giles continuously offers "slow down" as his only piece of advice, he's got so many issues with magic he doesn't really take up the mentor role. It's interesting to wonder whether Jenny could have done that if she'd lived.

Where I'm going with this, is sort of a defense for Willow. I think virtually any character on the show at her age, gifted with huge power and no one older to give support, would have done dark things in their own way. Willow's way is pretty creepy, but I don't think Buffy would be doing any better without Giles.


Cindy - Aug 15, 2003 12:03:27 pm PDT #4701 of 10001
Nobody

Willow was the same with her brain power. Anyone remember "DELiver" - to Cordy and Harm, from season 1? Not saying they weren't bitches to her, because they were, but...

I don't think Willow's responsibility should be shuffled off on Giles. Buffy was given a power she didn't ask for, and told she had to forsake a normal life, to save the world, repeatedly. Willow pursued a power because she was interested in it.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 12:03:41 pm PDT #4702 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

From the script:

Tara gets up - goes to the bookshelf across from them.

TARA
What happened to "History of Witchcraft?"

Willow sits up, alarm and guilt rising.

WILLOW
I - it isn't there?

Tara shakes her head, turns to Willow - concerned.

TARA
Dawn must have taken it.

WILLOW
What? No, she didn't. She did?

TARA
That book has a whole section on resurrection spells. (worried) This is bad. This is really bad…

Now Willow looks worried too. And regretful.

WILLOW
But it's just a history book. It might answer some of her questions - but it's not like she could do any harm with that stuff. Could she?

TARA
It doesn't have a "how to" guide, but it refers to specific resurrection spells and potions.

Willow stands - fully freaked.

WILLOW
I didn't- I mean, hey! How'd she know that?

TARA
I don't know. But she could get into major trouble with that information. (looking around) God. What else did she take-

WILLOW
(too quickly) Nothing.

Tara gives Willow a look - how would she know? Willow starts to ramble nervously-

WILLOW
I think. I think she took nothing else but maybe she did and we should look, because who knows? I don't.

TARA
No. We can't waste time on that now. Who knows what she's up to…

Willow takes this in - dread rising.

WILLOW
We need to call Buffy. Now.


DavidS - Aug 15, 2003 12:05:15 pm PDT #4703 of 10001
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

re: the script - so clearly Willow doesn't intend or expect Dawn to use the spellbook to raise Joyce.


Katie M - Aug 15, 2003 12:05:23 pm PDT #4704 of 10001
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

Willow pursued a power because she was interested in it.

Well, it's not like she pursued that power in the face of resistance from those around her. Minus Giles' very mild suggestion in Becoming that maybe the Big Power was not such a good idea, Oz was the only person who said anything before things went really off the deep end. And she was in a shinysparkly new relationship with a woman who says explicitly that the first thing she was attracted to about Willow was her power.


Daisy Jane - Aug 15, 2003 12:06:55 pm PDT #4705 of 10001
"This bar smells like kerosene and stripper tears."

I'm pretty sure the book that Dawn was using was the one she stole from Giles. That was the one clearly labelled as dangerous, and why steal it if it doesn't play a part in what happens next?

I totally think Buffy would be dark without the influence of not only Giles, but also her friends. Buffy in WSWB could have easily turned into Faith (Faith had just seen her watcher killed, and the bad guy was going to do worse to her). I think it was Xander's "I officially don't care" that snapped her out of it.