I've seen honest faces before. They usually come attached to liars.

Willow ,'Conversations with Dead People'


Buffista Movies 7: Brides for 7 Samurai  

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Jessica - May 25, 2013 7:01:17 am PDT #24508 of 30000
And then Ortus came and said "It's Ortin' time" and they all Orted off into the sunset

I remember the columnist Jon Carroll arguing that there were only really three plot twists: (1) somebody's alive that you thought was dead, or vice versa; (2) somebody's a different gender than presented; (3) hidden parentage is revealed.

At minimum, that list is missing "It was only a dream!"


DavidS - May 25, 2013 7:14:59 am PDT #24509 of 30000
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

At minimum, that list is missing "It was only a dream!"

That's not a twist. That's a betrayal.


§ ita § - May 25, 2013 7:26:36 am PDT #24510 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Why does it have to be?


DavidS - May 25, 2013 7:32:00 am PDT #24511 of 30000
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Why does it have to be?

It's just bad storytelling. It breaks a certain convent with the reader.

Of course there's no reason why any element is bad in itself, but historically it's been a refuge for shitty writers who don't commit to the story they're telling or just want to pull a cheap meta rug out from under the reader. So it's considered to be in bad taste, and is usually one the first things you're taught to not do in a writing class.


Amy - May 25, 2013 7:36:17 am PDT #24512 of 30000
Because books.

Careful. I've taken a lot of writing classes, and no one has ever told me there's something no one should do.

The thing that sets a lot of great writers apart is that they can get away with breaking all kinds of "rules" and make it compelling, believable, and page-turning.


§ ita § - May 25, 2013 7:40:56 am PDT #24513 of 30000
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Which one do you believe "it's just bad storytelling" or "there's no reason why any element is bad in itself"?


DavidS - May 25, 2013 7:41:47 am PDT #24514 of 30000
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Would you write a story that ended, "...and it was all a dream."?


DavidS - May 25, 2013 7:45:16 am PDT #24515 of 30000
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Which one do you believe "it's just bad storytelling" or "there's no reason why any element is bad in itself"?

They're not exclusive. I do believe it's bad storytelling and should be avoided.

That doesn't that you couldn't subvert the trope or do something with it.


Amy - May 25, 2013 7:49:18 am PDT #24516 of 30000
Because books.

Not just that way, no. But look at The Wizard of Oz. Essentially, it was all a dream, and I don't see a lot of people complaining that they feel cheated because of it.

I'm just saying there's an exception to every rule.


Tom Scola - May 25, 2013 7:56:20 am PDT #24517 of 30000
Remember that the frontier of the Rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward.

I always hated the ending of TWoO, ever since I was old enough to watch it all the way through without getting scared of the flying monkeys. Especially since I knew the book’s ending was different.