For some reason the art/craft discussion has made me flash on the "death is your art" line from Buffy. Was it really her art, or was it her craft? I'd say the lines definitely blurred at times (using her skills on routine patrol being craft, while a more personal use of her skills probably edged over towards art).

Well, based on Tom Scola's criteria, which work as well as any, it was her art...because it definitely rated high on the Coolness axis.

That way lies madness and/or semiotics.

Frank, please to tag?

Also, "Art", according to the first definition of Webster's unabridged:

the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

Although Tom Scola's Theory of Cool has a much better ring to it.

Well, based on Tom Scola's criteria, which work as well as any, it was her art...because it definitely rated high on the Coolness axis.

Heh, but you're probably not going to get much empathy from/with vampires.

Frank, please to tag?

I'd be honored!

I felt a lot more empathy for Potemkin when I realized that Eisenstein cast himself as the crazy padre.

Anyway, I have no dog in this hunt, but I am suffering a bit of cognitive dissonance that it's David, champion of the plastic and the pre-fab and scourge of that dirty word "authenticity," who is making the more exclusionary argument about who can wear the mantle of the artist. Well, I'm off to go stick a feather in my cap and call it macaroni.

I am suffering a bit of cognitive dissonance that it's David, champion of the plastic and the pre-fab and scourge of that dirty word "authenticity," who is making the more exclusionary argument about who can wear the mantle of the artist.

Hence my query about bubble gum music.

I too still think Precious Moments count as art -- though crappy art

I don't know. Somewhere it's crossed the line into commerce for me. Are the Precious Moments characters create to express something, or to make money? What's the prime Motivation?

Which leads us back to Michael Bay. I'm less and less inclined to call commercial films art. Some filmmakers have an artistic intent or spark, but when the studios, producers and marketers get involved, a film becomes a product, or a commodity. The language of Hollywood is way more about selling and packaging than it is about creating. I'm just not sure where the line is between art and commerce in film. They're all commercial products in a way.

Heh, but you're probably not going to get much empathy from/with vampires.

Tell that to Spike's fans circa 2002.

I don't know. Somewhere it's crossed the line into commerce for me. Are the Precious Moments characters create to express something, or to make money? What's the prime Motivation?

Well, by that standard, many great painters and composers would not be artists. Or say, anything on Broadway.

Notes: I wish to nibble on Tom's spicy brains.

I'm sitting in Sue and Sophia's corner, unsurprisingly. I haven't gotten very far into this discussion, because while I have definite Opinions, those Opinions are formed by my gut instincts and countless experiences throughout the years, and as such, I'd have a hard time trying to defend those against the sharp-minded people here without getting upset. Totally my issue.

But don't you have to compare the number of artists total to the number of vets or government inspectors or physicians or guards, to draw a conclusion about the percentage of each who commits suicide?

I think so. (A "per-capita" suicide chart. How fucking morbid.)